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Reducing The Potential for Error


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2 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Is it possible that the whole frame has slightly sunk on one side throwing everything out of square. Can you put a plumb Bob on the two gables and see what you find.

 

It is possible but if it is it will likely be compression of the eps which I imagine would manifest itself in the slab cracking? 

Our ground conditions are rock (literally) hard so it's highly unlikely to be any form of ground movement.

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1 hour ago, Barney12 said:

 

Well the MD and Brendan are getting in the car and driving down to site tonight. So I'd say that's pretty impressive so far!

I do actually have some confidence it will get sorted, you don't gain a good reputation (especially in the online bear pit of forums) for nothing!

 

Can't really add much more than already said.  Hope all goes well...

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My money is on a slab problem, that has thrown everything else out.  If the slab has a slope on it, for any reason, then that will have a pretty significant impact on all the openings, as well as the first floor levels.

 

I doubt there has been any settlement or movement, as the bearing load that a slab like this imposes on the ground is pretty low, far less than the max allowable compressive stress in the EPS.

 

IIRC, wasn't there some pretty bad weather when the slab went down?  Maybe the fact that there's also a big step in the slab has also contributed to the problem (not an excuse for it, just suggesting a possible reason).

 

Either way, my experience suggests that you'll get a solution from MBC, they seem damned good at fixing any glitches like this that occur.

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2 hours ago, Barney12 said:

 

In short; yes. It was only that I visited site last night that I spotted the FFL error on the big slider downstairs. If I hadn't raised an issue first thing this morning they would have not even mentioned it. 

In fairness to the window fitters, they've arrived at a built frame and have been asked ( ordained ) to fit the windows in correctly. I strongly doubt they'd have ever thought you'd stop work to 'jack' the corner of your entire new build up to alleviate the error. 

Attempting to fit the Windows level and square isn't their failing, the error should have been identified WELL before they arrived ;)

Exactly the response a lot of us expected from MBC, so let's watch this space for the feedback. 

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6 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

I must have spent an entire working week ferreting out errors of various sorts from the schedule, the drawings, the changed nomenclature, and the  requirement that my quadriplegic mate WILL be be able to scoot around in and out of our house on his own without skinning his knuckles. Luckily @craig was sympathetic to that issue. But it only takes one cog in the wheel to make the odd simple error  -typo-  -poor transposition- to @arse the whole thing up. And I'm spending over £30k.

 

As @Construction Channel points out, some disciplines within the building sector treat the trades with what -at my level- appears to be disdain at least on a par with this.

 

 

If time is taken to discuss details and the supplier/client/architect work together then the issue of problems arising should be null.

 

Not every supplier will do this and simply receive a schedule, get the quote out and never consider the details. Some will even give an alternative item because they can't achieve the size without compromising.

 

Thats why checks and discussions are paramount.

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2 hours ago, craig said:

 

If time is taken to discuss details and the supplier/client/architect work together then the issue of problems arising should be null.

I'm sorry but that statement is nonsense, it really is.  I went to minute details for my order - and the company were fully involved - and they screwed it up. Their fault fair and square. 

 

It's simply wrong to suggest that if you do xyz,  there will be no issues. In this case how would the supplier have reasonably expected to identify thus issue in advance? They couldn't and they are clearly not to blame. 

 

I don't mean to sound rude but I honestly think you live in a fantasy window world that is completely different to the real world where window companies across the board are crap - they appear lazy,  careless and have poor attention to detail both in specifying and manufacturing. Without exception, everyone I know who has built or is building a house has had issues with windows and doors (Nordan,  Rationel,  Janex and Blairs)  - and in almost all cases they are at fault - in spite of minute attention to detail by the client. And I don't watch Grand Designs but people always love telling me it's the windows test go wrong... 

 

 

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Well I've just got back from site. 

 

The good news first: the frame isn't out of square. I spent a good hour checking the frame and +/- 5mm it was pretty good. I think the "its all to cock" statement by the window team was a bit of a chuck a hand grenade and distract the attention away from us tactic. Not overly helpful! 

 

The bad news is the ground floor slab isn't level, neither is the first floor deck. The reasons why are probably a bit of an unknown but as Jeremy said they didn't have a great time with the weather, it was truly foul most days. 

 

Regarding the window openings; again there are a number that are out of true. Unfortunately this is a (as is so often the case) compounding of a number of errors. Firstly they had a manufacturing issue in the factory and had to adjust a good number of the openings onsite. Secondly the designer simply misread the drawings from Internorm and got some of the slab recesses wrong. I picked up these errors in advance of the windows arriving but unfortunately the remedial works in some instances just weren't quite right. 

 

So moving to the resolution. The guys turned up at 8:40pm after driving all the way from Gloucester. Joe and Brendan looked at the issues and conceded the problems without any hesitation. They are going to apply levelling screed to both the slab and the upper floor. Furthermore they are going to square all the openings with batten and packers as required. 

 

Their apporach was 100% no quibble. A refreshing change to many contractors who seem to make shirking responsibility an art! 

 

So so in summary; remind me again why we do this self build thing? Don't I have enough stress in my life? #nutter! 

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4 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

Don't I have enough stress in my life?

you should be past the worst bits so it should get easier.

i did hold off posting this

 

crane.jpg.056080070a0981144062656c5bf8555b.jpg

 

I had visions of Brendan under the house with those little plastic wedges.

 

And next time you see him remind him about my tree . He laughed at me jacking it up with car jacks to get it level. 

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18 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

I'm sorry but that statement is nonsense, it really is.  I went to minute details for my order - and the company were fully involved - and they screwed it up. Their fault fair and square. 

 

It's simply wrong to suggest that if you do xyz,  there will be no issues. In this case how would the supplier have reasonably expected to identify thus issue in advance? They couldn't and they are clearly not to blame. 

 

I don't mean to sound rude but I honestly think you live in a fantasy window world that is completely different to the real world where window companies across the board are crap - they appear lazy,  careless and have poor attention to detail both in specifying and manufacturing. Without exception, everyone I know who has built or is building a house has had issues with windows and doors (Nordan,  Rationel,  Janex and Blairs)  - and in almost all cases they are at fault - in spite of minute attention to detail by the client. And I don't watch Grand Designs but people always love telling me it's the windows test go wrong... 

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with your first two paragraphs. I went to huge trouble to ensure that every last detail was covered but the window company still made numerous errors along the way. Entirely separate to the thread I have been typing tonight regarding my frame I have a fairly big issue with my window design. It's not "the end of the world" but equally is incredibly annoying when I've spent the best part of £40k on windows. I'll write about it when I have time (and the energy)! Do I think it will be resolved to my satisfaction; highly unlikely!! 

 

As as to whether they are lazy, careless etc I don't know. I get the sense that it is simply the industry standard. I know that Internorm are "flying", they've never been busier in the UK. I am not saying though it is right or acceptable. 

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17 minutes ago, dogman said:

I had visions of Brendan under the house with those little plastic wedges.

I thought joe would have been driving the van whilst Brendan was in the back with the chop saw going, cutting wedges as they went. :D

Good to hear there's a reasonably pain free resolve :)

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3 hours ago, craig said:

 

If time is taken to discuss details and the supplier/client/architect work together then the issue of problems arising should be null.

 

 

@jamiehamy I agree in part with your statement but I think it's clear the key word in what @craig says is should be null - there will always be issues as tolerances on buildings are always going to be +\-5-10mm so when that is the average gap around a window you are bound to get issues. 

 

A lot of these can be down to spec and quote but unless you build the whole house to factory tolerances then something coming out of a precision factory environment - and I have worked for a window company in the past - is being fitted into something that potentially has a tolerance of build of more than the available on the product. 

 

I am building with a reclaim brick that has a +\- 12mm per brick on any of the length or width and up to 6mm on the depth - my brickie has managed to get the openings within 10mm of plan but if I had ordered my windows off plan then 2 would not fit. As it is I then have to wait for them to be made but that is easier than having to fix an opening in a brick wall..! 

 

Yes windows cause problems, but usually because we are wanting to put something onto a schedule that really should be waiting for the proper stage of the process to complete. I know that's probably an over simplification too, and windows do as you say seem to be the biggest sticking point on any build ..!

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@jamiehamy If attention to detail throughout the quotation stage/detailing stage and explanations of terminology on quotations etc. are all explained then issues should be null.

 

Its not wrong it's a fact. I'm not going to comment on the quality of other suppliers/manufacturers. What I can tell you is everything boils down to attention to detail and that includes quality control.

 

I've personally had two issue in the past 2 years, this came down to translation issues and resulted in the errors. Still boils down to attention to details.

 

Im not going to defend those companies, they have likely encountered those issues because of numerous things. Likely to be staff not being properly trained.

 

We don't send anything to production until everyone is happy and everything has been checked in the UK and overseas as once production starts, no changes can happen.

 

Window manufacturers/ suppliers are not being held accountable for mistakes on site but if everything is done as it is intended nothing should go wrong.

 

Attention to details, pure and simple no fantasy world here. It's one of our core business ethos. Mistakes cost money, mistakes cause angry customers, mistakes cause bad reputation and all it takes to prevent these is people paying attention.

 

Edited by craig
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8 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

I'm sorry but that statement is nonsense, it really is.  I went to minute details for my order - and the company were fully involved - and they screwed it up. Their fault fair and square. 

 

It's simply wrong to suggest that if you do xyz,  there will be no issues. In this case how would the supplier have reasonably expected to identify thus issue in advance? They couldn't and they are clearly not to blame. 

 

I don't mean to sound rude but I honestly think you live in a fantasy window world that is completely different to the real world where window companies across the board are crap - they appear lazy,  careless and have poor attention to detail both in specifying and manufacturing. Without exception, everyone I know who has built or is building a house has had issues with windows and doors (Nordan,  Rationel,  Janex and Blairs)  - and in almost all cases they are at fault - in spite of minute attention to detail by the client. And I don't watch Grand Designs but people always love telling me it's the windows test go wrong... 

 

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree, Jamie. 

 

The amount of effort that I put in to getting the window and door specification nailed down tight for our build was massive.  The final contract included around 6 or 7 pages of individual window and door drawings, with dimensions by each and a clear box for me to name and sign off each and every window and door design as being correct.  Despite this they turned up with one window that was 400mm too wide (along with some other more minor issues, like the French windows being offset vertically to each other in the frame, a cracked glazing unit, a poorly fitted internal trim, badly adjusted door hinges and locks, etc, etc).   How any company can read a window drawing that is clearly dimensioned as being 1600mm wide by 1200mm high and manufacture a window that is 2000mm wide by 1200mm high I simply do not know.

 

A read through both this forum and its predecessor will show that window and door dimensional problems are pretty common for self builders, so common that I think probably most of us have experienced some sort of issue with them (with a few exceptions).

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9 hours ago, Barney12 said:

Well I've just got back from site. 

 

The good news first: the frame isn't out of square. I spent a good hour checking the frame and +/- 5mm it was pretty good. I think the "its all to cock" statement by the window team was a bit of a chuck a hand grenade and distract the attention away from us tactic. Not overly helpful! 

 

The bad news is the ground floor slab isn't level, neither is the first floor deck. The reasons why are probably a bit of an unknown but as Jeremy said they didn't have a great time with the weather, it was truly foul most days. 

 

It sounds to me like a perfectly square frame has been laid on a sloping slab. Of course the frame will be square, BUT is it upright, or all leaning over a few degrees because of the sloping slab?  If it's leaning over then the window openings will appear "out of square" but again could be perfectly "square" but rotated a couple of degrees?

 

Leveling the sloping slab sounds fine, but I would want to be sure the frame really is upright.

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20 hours ago, Barney12 said:

Currently the window company are blaming MBC recess detail and the general slab level.

 

Window and door detailing. It's been a headache from the very start :(

 

 

Never had any issue with any of the MBC drawings to be honest.

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In my case, MBC emailed me the AutoCad file, so I had the exact same drawings as they were using for production, and I could then just hide a few layers and highlight the window apertures, with the dimension layer visible, to hand out to window companies.  IIRC, MBC handed the drawings to the company we used in the end, Munster Joinery, as they were just down the road from them in Cork (I have a feeling that Joe at MBC intervened with Munster when their service to us was a bit poor, too!).

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I appear to have been very fortunate with my (Rationel) windows, given the various experiences related here.  The only issue we had was missing an ordering deadline to avoid the factory summer shutdown, and that was really down to a small miscommunication between myself and the builder on who was going to order the windows.  Agreeing and signing off the spec / sizes was straight forward, the quotation and details contained within clear, and windows were delivered, all as ordered, without issue.  The agent (ADW Ltd) even sent up two guys a couple of months after we had installed the windows to make sure they were all adjusted correctly. 

 

 

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