dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Received a visit today from Gigaclear. We are getting fibre to house in the next few months up to 1Gps both directions. As this was unexpected it has got me thinking about how best to network the house. Rather than cover everything in a thread i would like to ask our resident experts about how best to wire the house with cable. I have not worked out how many points i will need yet but it will be at least 16. I also have a cctv system that can use IP cameras I have three locations where i can set up the equipment. The first thing to sort out are the switches. As 16 port and above Gigabit switches get very expensive, i was thinking about two or three smaller switches. Then i thought about putting them in different locations to reduce the cable lengths and the cable jungle you get. Cable will be cat 6 or 7( will not be using the cat 7 connectors) and possibly fibre to link the switches if i can find them cheap enough. Everything will be wired through patch panels. Will having several switches impact performance.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I've put in a cat6 network based around a 24 port netgear gigabit switch for around £70. A Multiple switch hierarchy should work with no problems but with a small increase in latency. in my opinion it's probably impossible to future proof beyond the next 5 years or so. I was recently discussing with some industry types (day job) what would be required to make virtual reality systems actually work without making you want to throw- up within the first 5 minutes. The general view was that a 4x increase in resolution and a 4x improvement in frame rate would be a good start. So 8-16k pixel resolution at 200-400hz refresh rate, probably with an increase in colour depth would probably a good target. Latency would need to be improved as would sensor resolution. Could be worth asking gigaclear what their future plans are ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hi, Having multiple switches connected together will work - and unless you are doing something fairly extreme its unlikely you will have any performance issues with it. However switches with lots of ports are not so expensive - eg something like this for £100 with 24 ports would be fine. Having all the cable runs going to a single central point has a simplicity to it - remember if you have multiple switch locations each needs to be accessible and ventilated to stop it overheating. I would put in more cable runs than you think you need - terminate them to a patch panel and you don't even need to connect them to a switch - you can patch them in when you need them. I wouldn't bother with connecting switches via fibre unless you have really long distances between them (over 100m). Fibre is complicated and the parts tend to be much more expensive than CATx (you need special connectors etc). If you want to ensure good performance from CATx runs - make sure the termination is done really carefully. When I did my house I got the electricians to wire everything up - and noticed that some of the runs seemed to have really bad performance. I got a specialist company to come in and test them with fancy equipment - and the conclusion was the termination hadn't been done very well. It took several tries to get them working properly. Note - the cheap test equipment for CATx cables isn't good enough - that just tests there is basic electrical connectivity. The fancy equipment tests that a cable run is capable of meeting the requirement of CAT6A (or whatever) - ie is capable of supporting lots of bandwidth. - reddal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) So it depends on what you are planning on doing in the house ..?? Gigabit switches are pointless in a domestic environment as you cannot get that speed on most domestic devices and even in 5 years time it will be unlikely. Most home PCs, netbox, XBox or other gaming will work at 100mps and you won't get any discernible benefit at Gbs speeds. IP cameras are not speed hungry either - Solarwinds tells me my IP cam at 50fps 1080p is using between 2.3 and 4mps depending on whether it's day or night. I would go for a 24 port ex Industry PoE switch with a pair of gigabit ports on it to connect to the supplier router. Then everything else in Cat6, dual wires to each location. If you go over 24 ports then add a non PoE switch to the stack and use the second gigabit port to link it. Bear in mind that even though you have gigabit download speeds, a lot of the internet traffic will be limited by the network - it's a Ferrari in rush hour London ..! Edited to say crossed with others saying similar ! Edited June 17, 2017 by PeterW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: in my opinion it's probably impossible to future proof beyond the next 5 years or so. True - but my bet is that in 5+ years time whatever technology is around will use CATx structured cabling for high bandwidth applications. A properly installed run of CAT6A or CAT7 will easily support 10Gb if the runs aren't huge - and that kind of bandwidth is vastly more than consumer level tech uses today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 I have put a MVHR vent in a large cloak cupboard near to the duct for fibre connection. It is central ish in house. 24 ports would be enough so probably best to stick with one switch. I have 2x 500m of Cat6a bought for a song on eBay. Will use it all by just running extra cables as stated by @reddal , didn't think about heat as two locations would be a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Agreed - all you can do is install the best you can within cost constraints. This probably leads to cat6 or cat 7 - which is what I've currently done. But don't discount the requirement for a fibre optic connection to your house , router, VR system in the next 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 POE was my second question in relation to the IP cameras. Would it be better to set up the CCTV as it's own network or sub net isolated from the house network. I picked up a reolink IP ptz camera on eBay for 40 quid. It is really good quality so will swap out all my old CCTV as and when. I will put cat6a to each CCTV point. As I can use it for the analogue CCTV as well. The Poe for the reolink required a POE, + injector. Any switches that can drive this type of camera were quiet expensive on ebay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 A quick look online and I could get pre made made fibre cables for not a lot of money. Maybe to key points such as TV and study. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: Bear in mind that even though you have gigabit download speeds, a lot of the internet traffic will be limited by the network - it's a Ferrari in rush hour London ..! Yes, but imagine the frustration of having an internet connection that can support 8 x screens worth of simultaneous ultra-HD porn - but the cabling in your house not allowing it :). Practically the only thing today that is likely to make use of Gb ethernet in a home is big file transfers between devices - ie backups, copying movie collections etc. If you are moving terabytes around your house you need Gb networks. Another would be if you have lots of IP cameras connecting to an NVR - you can overload a 100mb connection with plenty of cameras at peak times. - reddal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, dogman said: A quick look online and I could get pre made made fibre cables for not a lot of money. Maybe to key points such as TV and study. What I didnt do, and wish I had was to put in conduits from the plant room to the tv and study. Thus would allow me to swap the connectivity technology as required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On fibre... unless in the next 10 years we see a significant move to our transmission network, the possibility of fibre connected TVs is minuscule. Save your money ..! on PoE... Reolink cameras operate on 48v 15w as standard - any PoE switch will do. On cctv... you are easier creating a subnet but bear in mind everything will come together at your internet gateway so you're better off spending some time setting up the QoS rather than the subnet security if you are wanting internet access to the cameras. On eBay Cat6.... just check its solid core copper not CCA or stranded. I looked at some and it turned out to be stranded which is useless for structured cabling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, dogman said: Would it be better to set up the CCTV as it's own network or sub net isolated from the house network. If you really wanted to push performance to the limit - then use a seperate network for the CCTV (different cable runs and switches etc - a sub net is more a virtual thing that wont help). If you wanted a lot of cameras - and wanted to run them at max resolutions / framerate then this might make sense. However if only a handful of cameras and nothing extreme about them - then a normal Gb network can handle it plus just about anything else you throw at it fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, PeterW said: On fibre... unless in the next 10 years we see a significant move to our transmission network, the possibility of fibre connected TVs is minuscule. Save your money ..! on PoE... Reolink cameras operate on 48v 15w as standard - any PoE switch will do. On cctv... you are easier creating a subnet but bear in mind everything will come together at your internet gateway so you're better off spending some time setting up the QoS rather than the subnet security if you are wanting internet access to the cameras. On eBay Cat6.... just check its solid core copper not CCA or stranded. I looked at some and it turned out to be stranded which is useless for structured cabling. On everything - the title of this thread is "network future proofing" not "network now proofing"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, dogman said: A quick look online and I could get pre made made fibre cables for not a lot of money. Maybe to key points such as TV and study. There are different type of fibre connectors - so be careful that the premade cables have the right hardware for what you want to plug them into. Copper will take you a long way - I would only resort to fibre if you really need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 @PeterW the manual for the Reolink RLC-423 states PoE (802.3at) which i thought was POE+ My Cat6a is solid copper so i am ok there one roll is FTP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: On everything - the title of this thread is "network future proofing" not "network now proofing"? I agree but there are a few bits in there that will cause issues ... If you want a reasonable PoE gigabit switch then the Netgear ProSafe GS724TP is not too bad. Has SPF ports too so if the network provider router can support it you can go fibre to the switch. I think @Alphonsox hit the nail on the head though - this is about having the ability to upgrade if needed. Having ducts available to run your CatX or Fibre to the device in the future is probably more important than having the right cable their now "just in case"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 I currently have 16 cameras around the grounds. I have 5 acres with stables and several entrances. CCTV is vital to keep the scroats at bay. If i go to IP it will hit the network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, PeterW said: If you want a reasonable PoE gigabit switch then the Netgear ProSafe GS724TP is not too bad. Has SPF ports too so if the network provider router can support it you can go fibre to the switch. Saw one on ebay in 16 port the other day. As only three or four cameras are PTZ then i could use injectors for them and use the ports to drive static cameras. 16 minutes ago, PeterW said: On cctv... you are easier creating a subnet but bear in mind everything will come together at your internet gateway so you're better off spending some time setting up the QoS rather than the subnet security if you are wanting internet access to the cameras. will this mean a managed switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 So the Chinglese manual states 12v and PoE, but then says you can't use both together so suggests that is either 12v or PoE (48v). In terms of distance, CatX is ok to about 100m on PoE but you may find it struggles with more than 2 or three cameras. You could always go to a PoE remote switch at the stables and then run one or two cables back to the house as a redundant pair of data transfer cables to keep the power runs low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: What I didnt do, and wish I had was to put in conduits from the plant room to the tv and study. Thus would allow me to swap the connectivity technology as required. Good idea i have some 25mm flex duct left from the water pipe. Might try and get a draw string through it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, PeterW said: You could always go to a PoE remote switch at the stables and then run one or two cables back to the house as a redundant pair of data transfer cables to keep the power runs low. That's an idea, The stables are about 70m from the house would that cause an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, dogman said: I currently have 16 cameras around the grounds. I have 5 acres with stables and several entrances. CCTV is vital to keep the scoats at bay. If i go to IP it will hit the network OK with 16 cameras I would try to isolate them from the main network. ie dont just connect the IP cameras into the same switch as everything else - have a seperate switch for the cameras. Some NVRs have a built in PoE switch which makes this easy. A different subnet won't really help if you are short of bandwidth - it keeps devices logically seperate but in the end if all the traffic is going over the same cable it doesn't help if they are different subnets. A QoS setup can help prioritise which traffic you think is most important if you are short of bandwidth - but its complicated to setup - and its better to avoid the problem by installing extra cables so you have plenty of bandwidth if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 Gigaclear's normal router does not have SPF ports but the upgrade does. They give you a self install kit which you connect yourself including the pot at the curb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, dogman said: That's an idea, The stables are about 70m from the house would that cause an issue. I have a friend that has several IP cameras powered by PoE over runs about 80-90m. It seems to work fine - but I think 100m is about the limit for ethernet connections. It probably also depends on how much power the IP cameras use - ie a monster camera with lots of IR will probably have more restrictions on cable length than a tiny one. If you have power local to the cameras it might be better to power them directly - or by a local PoE switch as suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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