SteamyTea Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Dillsue said: A few months back I started a WhatsApp group of about 15-20 contacts who I knew could fund a PV install with a view to bulk buying as a group and hopefully enjoy some sizeable discounts. 1 person had already installed solar and no one else was interested! That is more the nature of the PV installer industry than any sizable discount you may get. Why tie up a few thousand in cash when you may not want to install in a month. Saw all this happen when FiTs dropped from the stupidly generous 45p down to the generous 22p or whatever it was a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 The timing was to get PV installed before the price cap got raised so there'd be no unfitted equipment lying around. The intent was for self install where people could or with supported install using roofer/spark. No PV installers as they all seem busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 (edited) On 09/03/2022 at 22:45, Radian said: Given that we run an electronics workshop and music studio from home and therefore have a base load of well over 1kW during the day, it's long been an ambition to get a PV array on the workshop roof. Unfortunately just as I was pulling the trigger world events intervened sending half the country (or so it seems) flocking to the doors of PV installers. I'm having trouble just getting them to pick up a phone. When I do get a answered, I'm not hearing things I'm happy to settle with. In the topic I started about AC cable length it was suggested that I find myself a roofer and get them to fit modules (a task I'm physically unable to do myself). But what are the regulatory hurdles that need to be overcome to do this anyway? Anyone should be able to buy the components - modules, inverter, racking, isolators and cable and do a mechanical install. A Part P electrician can install a new circuit and connect up the system. If the system is under 3.68kW it does not need a generation licence. The G98 application form is available on the energy network association website which also has connection guidance for G98 The form however asks for Installer Accreditation / Qualification which sounds like the first hurdle. This presumably means MCS accreditation. The MCS website hosts a Guide to the Installation of Photovoltaic Systems which is not very informative in this regard. Another aspect seems to be the structural implications and possibly the involvement of building control. There are companies who will do a Desk Top Structural Roof Appraisal for around £100 if you fill in a survey form. This should keep BC happy and go some way to legitimising the installation but if the objective is simply to use all the generation you can and not expect payment for what you export, but is this enough? If it was me, I would buy a solar kit of panels, inverter, isolators, safety stickers etc. Buy what you can physically install space wise and what you can afford/want to spend. Install it, in your case through a roofer and then an electrician or just a roofer then you doing the rest yourself (some inverters are wired to a 13A plug - yes you just plug it in!). It will work, it will be fine. The MCS registration is all about FIT payments, I don't want payments, I want to use all my energy because I am not generating energy for them to pay me 3p kWh. I would rather heat my garage than give it to them. The government need to get the DNO's told to cut all the nonsense and let people get on with it, which will encourage a massive shift towards small scale PV install. The DNO doesn't want you to install solar is the blatant truth. There are no structural implications in 99% of the case, the roof has been designed with snow and maintenance load. Maintenance load is 60Kg per metre squared, once the panels are installed you will no longer be able to load that roof with the maintenance load, the lightweight solar panel is about 12Kg and more than a metre. No wonder no one is installing PV when homeowners need to jump through hoops like all of this. A desktop survey? Honestly, in other words they know fine well their service is total nonsense. How any self respecting SE could provide desktop surveys for something like this and claim it to be worth the paper it is written on I do not know. You didn't hear it from me! Edited March 18, 2022 by Carrerahill 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 On 09/03/2022 at 22:52, Nickfromwales said: If you can convince yourself that you will self-consume at least the lions share of what you generate, then do as @ProDave @canalsiderenovation and others have done and DIY for as cheap as you possibly can. Any decent electrician should be able to do this from start to finish. Installing the trays / mountings etc couldn't be easier, but a roofer cannot run DC cabling and make off MC4's so I would not pursue that advice tbh. Best advice I have read all week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Carrerahill said: Best advice I have read all week! Yes but that advice was to not let a roofer plug in the modules. I can't do that work on the roof and an electrician is not the appropriate trade to call on for working with a slate roof so I would have to end up getting both trades involved. Apart from the impossibility of getting any to respond at the moment, and the coordination required to get them both on site together, I just can't see how this could work. If I cost out that exercise realistically, then the installer we've found isn't far off the mark. Roof survey or not. Plus if ever there is a day when the value of energy put into the grid is properly realised then an MCS cert. may be worth having. Frustrating for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 A lack of abundance of any particular trade does not endorse just grabbing the nearest one and 'promoting him'. Some people know just enough to be dangerous, choose well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 7 hours ago, Carrerahill said: The DNO doesn't want you to install solar is the blatant truth. Thats not my very recent experience with SPEN. We want to double our PV output from 16 to 32amp and need G99 approval. Emailed SPEN, someone phoned me back the next day, a couple of phone calls/emails later and we have an in principle agreement. Our transformer is under sized by modern standards so SPEN are changing that FOC. Weve a design verification fee to pay but seemingly nothing other than that. What came out in conversation was that they are currently getting lots of applications from trade installers who are submitting s***e, so they get rejected. You cant blame the DNOs for installers cutting and pasting the wrong info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiano Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I was very disappointed by UKPN, we already have an older G98(?) approval to export up to 8.6kw from our Solar and on asking for G99 to increase the battery inverter from 3.68 to 5.5 they said yes so long as “export is limited to zero by an export limiting device”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markharro Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 On 18/03/2022 at 14:31, Carrerahill said: The government need to get the DNO's told to cut all the nonsense and let people get on with it, which will encourage a massive shift towards small scale PV install. When is this (Westminster) gov going to do anything as progressive as that! You are right though and I am learning the hard way. We have just got planning for our passivhaus build and I had hoped to aim for PH+ which requires a solar PV array much bigger than the 3.68 max without permission. Our new roof will have space for in excess of 40 panels so my thinking had been for something like a 14-16kw array. But then I started to do some reading and now understand this DNO permissions stuff where we have to pay (Scottish Power) around £600 for them to tell us if we can connect this or not. There should be no fee for this and on top of that the DNO should be forced to accommodate. Now it looks like I will be forced to cut back to 3.68 or else something a bit higher with the export throttle thing - whatever it is simply a waste of potential. On a connected topic, can anyone recommend a good general electrician in the Edinburgh area who could wire a system if I fitted it to the roof first? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Christiano said: I was very disappointed by UKPN, we already have an older G98(?) approval to export up to 8.6kw from our Solar and on asking for G99 to increase the battery inverter from 3.68 to 5.5 they said yes so long as “export is limited to zero by an export limiting device”. Perhaps they meant limit the export from the battery inverter to zero, which is a requirement for g99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted March 21, 2022 Author Share Posted March 21, 2022 46 minutes ago, J1mbo said: Perhaps they meant limit the export from the battery inverter to zero, which is a requirement for g99 To me it all seems like something out of 'Alice in wonderland'. What is the essential difference between exports from a battery or direct from Solar power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiano Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Yes, but the UKPN contact didn’t respond to me asking for clarification on that point and we decided it wasn’t worth the hassle. If we add battery capacity we will probably add the export limiting device and try for G99 again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Radian said: To me it all seems like something out of 'Alice in wonderland'. What is the essential difference between exports from a battery or direct from Solar power? I guess they are trying to stop people benefiting from the old 40p FIT simply buying batteries to charge off e7 then dump it back for a nice 30ppkwh profit? Or arbitrage from other tariffs? Edited March 21, 2022 by J1mbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Radian said: To me it all seems like something out of 'Alice in wonderland'. What is the essential difference between exports from a battery or direct from Solar power? EH? You wouldn't want the battery to export, and nor will it as the software prevents it iirc? Moot discussion. 10 hours ago, Christiano said: I was very disappointed by UKPN, we already have an older G98(?) approval to export up to 8.6kw from our Solar and on asking for G99 to increase the battery inverter from 3.68 to 5.5 they said yes so long as “export is limited to zero by an export limiting device”. Er, that's how they come delivered..... You have what you've asked for, I just don't think you realise it Some of this often gets lost in translation. Eg, your PV inverter can still export. Edited March 22, 2022 by Nickfromwales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: 10 hours ago, Radian said: To me it all seems like something out of 'Alice in wonderland'. What is the essential difference between exports from a battery or direct from Solar power? EH? You wouldn't want the battery to export, and nor will it as the software prevents it iirc? Moot discussion. I disagree, there's a lot that can be discussed because there's a missed opportunity to reform the grid using microgeneration. Obviously we wouldn't want to export at the current punitive SEG rates when we can offset our expensive imports with storage but that would not necessarily be the case if exports were properly valued. The old FIT scheme was possibly too generous, but grid balancing by encouraging export from micro-storage when demand was high could make a big difference. Like the Red Queen, common sense doesn't seem to prevail with the network operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, Radian said: Like the Red Queen, common sense doesn't seem to prevail with the network operators. I think it does. They know the limitations only too well and they have to work within strict rules and regs. Maybe, if domestic users want to export via the grid, they should pay for that, like the large generation companies have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: I think it does. They know the limitations only too well and they have to work within strict rules and regs. Maybe, if domestic users want to export via the grid, they should pay for that, like the large generation companies have to. Or buy a PowerWall and join the Octopus Telsa tariff, and enjoy a symmetric 12p per kWh tariff. The downside if you hand full control of your batteries to Tesla in this scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radian Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: I think it does. They know the limitations only too well and they have to work within strict rules and regs. Maybe, if domestic users want to export via the grid, they should pay for that, like the large generation companies have to. The limitations are also where the opportunities reside. My argument isn't with the present situation but with reference to a potential future that capitalises on the willingness of people to participate in a nation wide cooperative. There are already numerous small scale cooperatives like Brixton Energy in London. I would just like the latest UK energy strategy to mention microgeneration. If you search for that, it all seems to have died a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Radian said: The limitations are also where the opportunities reside. My argument isn't with the present situation but with reference to a potential future that capitalises on the willingness of people to participate in a nation wide cooperative. There are already numerous small scale cooperatives like Brixton Energy in London. I would just like the latest UK energy strategy to mention microgeneration. If you search for that, it all seems to have died a decade ago. See the post above. Car to grid also big area of interest in the strategy. Edited March 22, 2022 by J1mbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) Just had a look at the National Grids revenue, about £15bn in 2021. Natural gas was around 551 TWh and electric around 653 TWh. Taking away conversion and transmission losses we get 489 TWh for gas and 308 TWh for electrical. So that is almost 800 TWh shifted for £15bn. So less than 2p/kWh. (All the data is from the latest DUKES) Edited March 22, 2022 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc100 Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 I self installed a 6kw system via G98 . £3080 for materials plus 2 days labour for the non MSC sparky. No issues . Sparky just put his address in the G98. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1mbo Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, gc100 said: I self installed a 6kw system via G98 . £3080 for materials plus 2 days labour for the non MSC sparky. No issues . Sparky just put his address in the G98. Well except that it should have been a G99 route 3 application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, J1mbo said: Well except that it should have been a G99 route 3 application. +1 If distributed/micro/embedded generation isnt controlled we'll collectively start frying the grid were so reliant on. Edited March 22, 2022 by Dillsue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 15 hours ago, markharro said: Can anyone recommend a good general electrician in the Edinburgh area who could wire a system if I fitted it to the roof first? thanks PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc100 Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 hours ago, J1mbo said: Well except that it should have been a G99 route 3 application. Yes it was the g99 . My memory… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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