Help with LED lighting

[Stones]

I've been trying to pin down what to do in terms of LED lighting, and frankly, find the whole thing a bit of a minefield.

We have 3 requirements:

We want downlights in the kitchen and utility.  These will be fitted into an empty ceiling void (no insulation present).

The hall is the second area where it would be nice to have downlights.  However, this would mean having to develop a solution in terms of air tightness and contact with rockwool type insulation.  

Finally we have the bathrooms, with the same issues as the hall plus the need for IP rating (at least over the shower).

TBH I'm really at a loss to know which way to go - 12V vs 240V,  downlights or surface mounted.

Looking on the old forum there were links and some testing of these;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6W-9W-12W-16W-18W-LED-Recessed-Ceiling-Lamp-Bulb-Panel-Light-Fixture-Kit-Bright-/161449903807?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Lighting_Lamps_Lighting_SM&var=&hash=item25972a06bf

As far as I can tell, they would cover the kitchen and utility.  The problem I'm having is knowing if I can use these where I have the air tightness / insulation issue, and whether I could use for general lighting in the bathroom (accepting i would need an IP65 over the shower enclosures).

Any suggestions warmly welcomed.

 

[daiking]

I'm very happy with a mix of 9W and 12W round panels I have in kitchen, utility and WC areas - but I don't have air tightness worries.

[worldwidewebs]

Speak with Guy at Eco LED http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk  A very helpful chap  

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd second the view that the panels are great.  I have a mix of 3W and 6W round panels in the kitchen/dining room and a rectangular 16W panel in the hall, and they are better by far than the MR16 12V LED downlighters I was using (and still am in the bathrooms, utility room and WC).

The nice thing with the panels is that they are barely thicker than the plasterboard and they run pretty cool, so they are easier to fit where the VCL is in fairly close proximity to the back surface of the plasterboard.

[Guest Alphonsox]

Did you use these panels with the manufacturers power supply ? Or were these modded in some way ?

[Jeremy Harris]

The panels I bought came from China with rubbish power supplies, but they are exactly the same panel lights sold at several times the price by some of the UK re-sellers, the only difference being that the UK resellers are generally using better constant current power supplies.

Both the 3W and 6W panels need a 300mA constant current supply, with the voltage at the LED unit varying from around 10V for the 3W panels to around 20V for the 6W panels.  At the time I fitted our lights I couldn't find a supplier of decent power supplies, so made up my own system for driving the lights, but I would guess that some hunting around would source some decent constant current supplies that don't emit loads of radio interference. 

There's a bit in my blog about these dreadful power supplies, here:

 

[Stones]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I'd second the view that the panels are great.  I have a mix of 3W and 6W round panels in the kitchen/dining room and a rectangular 16W panel in the hall, and they are better by far than the MR16 12V LED downlighters I was using (and still am in the bathrooms, utility room and WC).

The nice thing with the panels is that they are barely thicker than the plasterboard and they run pretty cool, so they are easier to fit where the VCL is in fairly close proximity to the back surface of the plasterboard.

What about proximity to rockwool type insulation - do they still require ventilation space (albeit limited) around the back of the fitting?

[Mackers]

6 hours ago, worldwidewebs said:

Speak with Guy at Eco LED http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk  A very helpful chap  

Just looked at this website and I'm impressed with their stuff. Obviously haven't got into the technical end yet but the facility to customise your fitting and get a specification sheet is great.

I'm an M&E consultant and specify lighting regularly and I've got plenty of use for a nice handy website like that. I'll have to get some samples from them!

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Stones said:

What about proximity to rockwool type insulation - do they still require ventilation space (albeit limited) around the back of the fitting?

They run pretty cool compared to halogen, which run at ~200oC, so are not that problematic with wool insulation. Just push it up and away prior to fitting and job done. 

[Stones]

So nothing to worry about - I did wonder about a chicken wire 'dome' over each fitting just to keep everything clear of the fitting (50mm or so).

[Nickfromwales]

That's belt and braces, but IMO moot as the heat will remain captured above the fitting anyway. The 230v fittings get hot to the touch but when encapsulated in a fire rated spotlight are negligible at best. 

[Stones]

So, a fire rated spotlight casing for those locations where I do have insulation present, and IP65 over the shower enclosures would do it? 

[Nickfromwales]

Personally, I despise the IP65 spots in bathrooms. To avoid that requirement I'd go for 12v led lamps with one whopper, or multiples of smaller transformers and do a way with those horrible tunnel like fittings. They harbour all sorts of dirt dust and grot and have next to zero dispersion so give a very unsympathetic spot of light. 

[Jeremy Harris]

These panels run barely warm, certainly not hot.  You can comfortably hold your hand on them after they've been on for a fair time.  I didn't take any particular precautions, just pushed the rockwool aside slightly, more to make them easier to install than to reduce heat build-up.

[Stones]

I used an IP65 spot over the shower in my last house and it did the job in that enclosed space.  Not sure they would be the answer for the whole room.  I think it's time to order up a sample and take it from there.

 

Question is, warm white or day (cold) light? 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Stones

[Onoff]

Before I found the previous forum I hadn't even heard of air tightness!

I'd chosen the Aurora downlighters I WAS going to have. It was so simple.

.....And now I'm into worrying about penetrating the VCL etc

[Nickfromwales]

48 minutes ago, Stones said:

I used an IP65 spot over the shower in my last house and it did the job in that enclosed space.  Not sure they would be the answer for the whole room.  I think it's time to order up a sample and take it from there.

 

Question is, warm white or day (cold) light? 

I just can't stand having different light fittings in the same ceiling space. Why not change the discipline so you can have all matching, regardless of zone . ?

for me it's almost always day / cool white. Makes a clean sharp bathroom bright and clean looking. Warm white has a far too yellow tint to it so isn't as nice imho. It can be nice if you've exclusively used natural tiles / themes but that limits their use-ability. 

[Calvinmiddle]

2 hours ago, Stones said:

Question is, warm white or day (cold) light? 

LED hut now have 3 options for GU10 fitting (and possibly other but haven't look as I needed only GU10s

Warm White (2700 Kelvin)

Daylight (4000 Kelvin)

Cool White (5000 Kelvin)

Edited May 30, 2016 by Calvinmiddle
pic missing

[Calvinmiddle]

Word of warning here from someone who is still having a nightmare with LED lights.  I spec'd 240v GU10 fittings for a number of recessed downlights - I naively thought that if I got dimmable LED GU10s and got the electrician to fit LED dimmers than I would be all good.

How wrong I was - got a 40+ dimmable LED GU10s from LED Hut only to find they flicker like they are trying to induce an epileptic fit and so after chatting to the electrician he claims it is due to the fact they aren't compatible with the dimmer switches they have fitted and their wholesaler recommends Megaman GU10s.  So I go out and get them and now find there is hardly any dim in them, not the 100%-0% like I was expecting with the old incandescent light, more like 100%-50% then drop to nothing.

Really wish I had paid more attention to this at the planning stage - some people have said I would have been better fitting a 24v system, not sure if that is true or not.

Bottom line, if you want dimmable LEDs then be a bit more careful on what you are doing...

[Fallingditch]

On 29/05/2016 at 11:34, daiking said:

I'm very happy with a mix of 9W and 12W round panels I have in kitchen, utility and WC areas - but I don't have air tightness worries.

Where did you source them from, can I ask?

[daiking]

18 minutes ago, Fallingditch said:

Where did you source them from, can I ask?

From Edwardes

https://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/search/p/3/q/enlite

I've got a mix of Enlite EN-PL012 and EN-PL09 

Seems to have been superseded by a B mod. 

[Frogeye]

3 hours ago, Stones said:

Question is, warm white or day (cold) light? 

My electrician has shown me some downlighters that he's hoping I'm going for and they have a switch on the back of them that lets you select which 'warmth' of light you want. Three different settings. I'll try and find out what they're called (about £22 a piece though!)

[Stones]

The other issue (for the bathrooms) is IP rating.  Looking again at the zones and ratings, and as I will have a ceiling height of 2.4 metres (so outside zones 0, 1 and 2), it doesn't look like I'll need anything special in terms of IP ratings for the main bathroom ceilings. That would certainly simplify things and let me use the recessed LEDs previously linked to. If my understanding is incorrect, please somebody correct me!

I can't help but feel that an IP65 rating over the shower cubicle would be a good idea given the likelihood of splashing etc.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I fitted all our LEDs in the bathroom above the height limit, to avoid the need for IP-rated fittings.  Then again, they are all 12V, so come under the SELV rules anyway.

[Trw144]

Can I chip in and ask if additional up rating is required above a shower if the recessed lights are 24v?