Rainwater seeps through

[JohnBishop]

Hi All,

    There are leaks on the shared wall and after looking on the outside I think the rain water seeps from the neighbouring roof I think it's flatter than mine and some water makes its way under my tiles. Something is not right.

There are also some leaks into the chimney. I think this also needs doing.

 

 

Please advise.

Best regards

[Big Jimbo]

It looks like your roof has been re-done at some point. Looks like water getting under the ridge tiles between the Two buildings.

[JohnBishop]

Yes, it's newer than the neighbour's but the ridge bit needs doing.

What is this black residue under his roof, is it from the water exposure, an overflowing gutter? This is northern side so the green stuff can be justified.

His roof could be leaking in few places.

 

I think chimney also needs an inspection.

 

[Dave Jones]

there should be a hidden gutter between the two roofs under that bodge of ridge tiles. It's purpose is to provide a watertight barrier where you have 2 dissimilar tiles that dont bond.

 

Not a huge job, get rid of those ridge tiles and fit the trays. days work tops.

 

Assume the right hand house is a council house with the external cladding, maybe get onto them ?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Dave Jones

[dpmiller]

the bottom two rows of tiles kick up a helluva bit. Did the damp follow windy weather? I'd suggest the felt at the eaves is questionable at least.

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, JohnBishop said:

What is this black residue under his roof

It’s just moss / other growth that hasn’t been hit by the rain. You’ll see it on many surrounding properties and is of zero concern. 

[Carrerahill]

Not sure what that bodge of ridge tiles is about. As far as I know those are ridge tiles for a ridge.

 

What should have been used is called a "Secret joining/bonding gutter" - it looks like a flat piece of tray with an upstand in the middle, the flat sections have some grooves and usually a rough finish to limit water travel, you cut back the neighbouring roof slightly, they lap the hopefully good felt up onto the gutter, then your new roof membrane is laid up to the gutter before re-covering. Job done.

 

Looks like someone has gone cheap and used tiles on your roof instead of slate which has maybe caused the contractor (horse tied up out back?) some issues with the joint. But that is an abomination. 

 

If they have not used a gutter, which I suspect they have not or else why the ridge tile bodge? Then I do wonder if they have just lapped the felt, then tried to rely on the ridge tiles and mortar to provide the seal. The ridge tiles and mortar are now ropey and there you have it, a leak. 

[Russell griffiths]

@JohnBishop why do you think it’s your neighbours roof leaking, if yours was the one that was replaced, then it was the roofers that did yours that haven’t provided a good join between old and new. 

Others have said that’s it’s a bit of a mess, well it is, but that row of ridge tiles was a very standard practice in the 80-90s for joining two roofs of different materials. 

The tiles on the left are a clay small tile, not slate. The tiles on the right are an interlocking concrete, again a standard replacement due to cost. 

I think you need a roofer and I would say it’s down to you to fix it, your neighbour was probably very happy with their roof before yours got re done., and could well be causing a leak on their side as well. 

 

The black stuff as nick said is air pollution that doesn’t get washed off because it is hidden under the roof line.  

[JohnBishop]

@dpmiller  @Dave Jones @Carrerahill @Russell griffiths

Thank you for your suggestions

I reckon I get rid off the ropey ridge on the other side as well as this will leak there too.
I think they haven't done a good job around chimney as well what would explain the damp on the chimney wall.

[JohnBishop]

My surveyor has done L3 survey at the property and it seems all the leaks originate from the ridge tiles but I think also the chimney AND/OR the area around the chimney what would explain the wet spots on the 2nd picture above. The fireplace on the ground floor has been completely walled/sealed. I think I need this fireplace back for better airflow. I think they walled it because the council tenant was burning stuff he wasn't supposed to.
The ridge tile on the other side does (Southern) looks better and is not leaking (I reckon because mortar has a better chance of drying) but will eventually needs doing.

How do you think what would be the cost of fixing this?
I have asked for quotes 3 local roofers but they didn't come back yet, I don't know maybe not interested in fixing things but replacing the whole roof but I don't want to go that route yet as I am planning to put solar panels in not distant future so I would do it at one go.

 

I reckon this cannot be done without a scaffolding or at least some of the work would require scaffolding.

Edited April 25, 2022 by JohnBishop

[tonyshouse]

Plain tiles are more likely to leak and should have had soakers down under the ridge tiles and probably didn’t. 
 

I don’t like the detail one bit, virtually guaranteed to leak, even with a secret gutter it might! 

[JohnBishop]

I mean I see over 30% of the semi-detached houses in the neighbourhood have different tiles and ridge tiles in the middle so it does not look like rare or bad practice. Example picture 1 and 2
What I understand based on your input is that a roof without ridge tiles last longer. Example picture 3 and 4.

I reckon the problem is that this hasn't been done properly - no protection underneath (no secret gutter) and mortar disintegrated over time.

 

 

The question is if the fireplace should be reinstated to provide a better ventilation but I also would want to install a wood stove as a backup.

Edited April 28, 2022 by JohnBishop

[JohnBishop]

There are two types of these secret gutters.

Which one would you recommend? The one that requires mortar or not or it depends?

 

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/dry-fix-roofing-grp-bonding-gutter-70mm.html
https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/corodrain-3000mm-secretjoining-gutter-pack-of-10.html

[JohnBishop]

I have managed to get into the attic and I think I see how the water seeps on the wall:
https://ibb.co/4W5rn5m
https://ibb.co/6FStDCD

Edited June 25, 2022 by JohnBishop

[JohnBishop]

The surveyor was correct listing two issues with:

1. the ridge on the part wall (install secret gutter)

2. the chimney (repointing chimney, fix pots and flashuibng etc.)

but surveyor's pictures were out of focus so I could not see exactly what I see now. These leaks were most likely the reason the housing association decided to sell it as the job was too expensive in their regard.

 

As I could fix No. 1 myself fixing No.2 - installing new pots and repointing a chimney seems difficult due to difficult access, as I have seen it requires 3 storey scaffolding that goes level to the chimney. I was thinking about running couple of ropes over the house for a harness to prevent falls on both sides but there is no good grip to work on the chimney unless I rope myself to the chimney.

With this kind of jobs for a novice 1st of all you don't want to rush it (still down to weather) but with a harness it takes a lot longer. On the other hand if I install my own scaffolding and run my own safety ropes then I have more time to play with this stuff. Do the chimney first then install secret gutter but I don't want to remove tiles in case it is going to rain.

There is no point doing No1 alone because the water gets into the chimney anyway and I don't think it's the problem with the flashings, I reckon a broken pot or mortar on the top. I am going to fly a drone to inspect it.

Have to check the angle of the roof but I consider it steep.

Edited June 26, 2022 by JohnBishop

[Miek]

It would be tempting to remove the chimney altogether IMO. Your neighbours phone line is an issue with that, and they may not agree. 

 

I would get up there on a roof ladder first and gave a detailed look at it. 

[PeterW]

8 hours ago, JohnBishop said:

With this kind of jobs for a novice 1st of all you don't want to rush it (still down to weather) but with a harness it takes a lot longer. On the other hand if I install my own scaffolding and run my own safety ropes then I have more time to play with this stuff. Do the chimney first then install secret gutter but I do

pay someone. There is no way you can do that using ropes as you will get them caught on the scaffold, plus you need to  scaffold either side of the join which means on your neighbours property. Also, if you remove that join and make it watertight on your side and the neighbours leaks, you are liable !! And your insurers won’t help you as you will have caused wilful damage by neglect. 
 

For the sake of probably £1500 tops, it’s a couple of days job - probably longer to get the scaffold up and down !

[ProDave]

Yes don't try DIYing a chimney repair.  It may look from the ground that you can just stand on the ridge and do it, with your safety ropes, but have you ever been up on the ridge of a roof?  You will likely find the chimney is a lot larger and taller than you expected and the pots are monsters.  It really does need a proper platform to work from.

[JohnBishop]

6 hours ago, ProDave said:

Yes don't try DIYing a chimney repair.  It may look from the ground that you can just stand on the ridge and do it, with your safety ropes, but have you ever been up on the ridge of a roof?  You will likely find the chimney is a lot larger and taller than you expected and the pots are monsters.  It really does need a proper platform to work from.

I agree with you looking at the chimney from distance is one thing and actually working on the chimney is a different story and I can quickly get overwhelmed once on the top.
I haven't figured out yet how this could be done without a scaffolding. It would have to be some flat structure fastened to the roof or a scaffolding from the attic but this would require opening the roof anyway.

 

You are right I have to get some quotes because maybe it's not that terrible and fixing it does not require demolishing everything. I was not able to identify if the hidden gutter is there as the gap between the wooden bit and the wall is too tight. But since they put these chunky ridge tiles I would think there is none.

[JohnBishop]

7 hours ago, PeterW said:

pay someone. There is no way you can do that using ropes as you will get them caught on the scaffold, plus you need to  scaffold either side of the join which means on your neighbours property. Also, if you remove that join and make it watertight on your side and the neighbours leaks, you are liable !! And your insurers won’t help you as you will have caused wilful damage by neglect. 
 

For the sake of probably £1500 tops, it’s a couple of days job - probably longer to get the scaffold up and down !

Yes, you're right, I reckon this would have to be done together with the neighbour. It could be it is not leaking on his side as the ridge tile on my side is facing N and the autumn/winter winds drive the rainwater where it shouldn't.

[Gone West]

3 minutes ago, JohnBishop said:

It would have to be some flat structure fastened to the roof or a scaffolding from the attic but this would require opening the roof anyway.

You can hire chimney scaffolding, not something I've ever done or would want to do though. This is the sort of thing builders have used in the past for me.

 

https://fossewayhire.com/type27p/chimney-scaffold/

 

 

[JohnBishop]

Someone suggested to use a cherry picker if the job can take a day or 2 but this would require a bigger unit to reach the chimney.

I haven't spoken to the neighbour yet, not sure if he is affected by the leaks or ignoring them (retired but not disabled chap)

I haven't even managed to get the roofer to come over and do their checks. These people are unreachable or so busy.
I reckon there is more interest and money in doing whole roofs rather than going after repair jobs.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by JohnBishop

[JohnBishop]

I have no other option but widen my search, I cannot rely on local roofers.

[JohnBishop]

ok, I done a new campaign and there is some response. I think all the boys were on holiday abroad or something.

[JohnBishop]

Now I have had many responses from roofers but most of them are quite sceptical the neighbour is going to participate. Only one of the roofers says about a split responsibility because it's a part wall but most of them say in 9 out of 10 cases neighbours don't want to get involved (if rented or council property).

I won't be surprised when neighbour turns around and says that I have leaks so I should deal with them myself considering the ridge tiles are actually off centre not exactly over the part wall but on my side. If you look at the picture in the 1st post above.
On the top ridge tiles start off centre then go down towards the centre at an angle.
This could be indicative of some past dispute. Who would do it like that, not exactly in the centre?

But then for instance it does not make sense to do half of the chimney. Some roofers don't care and do half of the chimney and seal the gap with something else.
Other roofers don't mind capping the whole thing because it's just an extra bucket of mortar and sand.

 

My question to you is that if the only option will be me fixing it by myself, fixing existing ridge tiles (that are in tact) and half of the chimney I understand this will still require neighbour's permission to work on some of his tiles but rather than a more invasive secret gutter it won't be that much work on his slate tiles..

I reckon in any case if he does not want to contribute to any of this work, should I at least ask him to provide timestamped pictures of the part wall on his side before the work commences?

This is so in case after the job is done he comes back in a month or two and says that my roofers damaged his part of the roof and now he has leaks all over the part wall on his side and I supposed to fix it for him?

 

A secret gutter is the best option and this would be the way forward to future proof the roof but looking what happened to people's finances in the last 2 years I reckon people are even less likely to spend money on roofs and why should I pay for it in full?
The difference in price is not that much £300 but it is also more invasive so requires more cooperation.
Not sure if he's affected by the leaks or any small repair work that has been done on his side led to even more leaks on my side. I don't know. What worries me is that this issue was reported, attended but not fixed for over 1.5 years and the housing association simply given up on this. And it does not look like the whole roof need replacing. I had a surveyor and one roofer looking at it from the loft and it's in good shape. It is just what revolves around the part wall.

Edited July 27, 2022 by JohnBishop