Barn Conversion. No mains water.

[YeBullen]

Hi,

Hoping somebody on the forum may be able to advise. We would like to buy a barn in Penshurst, Kent - which has planning permission to convert into a 4 bedroom home. The problem is that the water utility main is over 1k/m away and it seems impossible that we would be able to run a new pipe, through private land / fields etc.

We are considering a borehole, but I am told there is no guarantee that we would strike water, and if we did unlikely to be high yielding, or good enough quality without costly filtration. So my questions are: -

1. Is it possible to tee off the sellers property water supply (which she is happy to do). Is it legal?, what are the risks involved with doing something like this.
2. Does anybody know about boreholes or the likelihood of striking water and if there is anyway of knowing for sure (not involving a person with a couple of rods walking about )***

It seems that it is just way too risky to purchase this barn if I cannot 100% guarantee a water supply. Anybody come up against a situation like this?

Thanks,

Matt.

[jamieled]

There should be enough information about to make an informed assessment of the likelihood of hitting water. The bgs website allows you to access to some borehole information for free. You may be able to identify a nearby site and ascertain what depth water was hit. Of course the level may be seasonally varying and it depends how close it is to your site. Nothing is guaranteed but it should be possible to remove a chunk of the risk. Water divining is still respected by some hydrogeologists and I've seen good results from it.

 

You will probably always need some filtration, this doesn't need to be expensive. We use a surface water source which is typically considered to be of much lower quality and our treatment system capital costs were still <£2k. The exception to this is if you have known contaminants to remove (like nitrates) which is more difficult with a private treatment system.

 

Can't help with 1).

[scottishjohn]

18 minutes ago, YeBullen said:

1. Is it possible to tee off the sellers property water supply (which she is happy to do). Is it legal?, what are the risks involved with doing something like this.
2. Does anybody know about boreholes or the likelihood of striking water and if there is anyway of knowing for sure (not involving a person with a couple of rods walking about )***

that is a big bobby trap --what if she sells and next person does not like you sharing ?

and no water board would ever allow that ,so  they will not ever sort any problems for you ,where would the water meter be?

all would be classed as a private supply so you would be paying neighbour for water --on another meter where it comes off their supply + they can charge you what they like 

not a good idea 

bore hole will cost what ever it takes to get down to good water -- if ground is soft then lots of borehole casing to pay for  as well

all you can do is get a quote and see =are there any other bores holes close --can you find out how deep they are>?

 ball park guess for bore hole  would  £10-£15 k

maybe the fact that the sellers water comes from so far away tells you that borehole is not viable?

 

 

 

[Temp]

I recal the government are/have consulted on water companies adopting private supply pipes. No idea if that's likely though.

 

You could agree an option to purchase subject to a satisfactory bore hole supply being achieved.

 

[PeterW]

@YeBullen start here with the BGS search

 

http://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/geoindex/home.html?layer=BGSBoreholes&_ga=2.162032373.890267982.1632046656-1384336153.1632046656

 

Looking at a few in that area, water was hit around 55-60m so you’re probably going to have no issue. There is also a lot of surface water on the map so I doubt you wil have problems. 

[saveasteading]

At some stage you would need an specialist borehole company, as it is a rather technical thing to do. Therefore I suggest speak to them now.

 

From what I hear, they can silt up in a few years, so it is not a one-off cost.

I know of a specialist (too far from you) who uses a stream/well for his own supply rather than do his own borehole (which would be feasible). why? cost of installation and maintenance.

 

To be certain of the neighbour's supply you would need to have a written contract, for which you would pay both party's costs, and which the neighbour might not want. The cost structure and a meter could be included.

[YeBullen]

This is such great feedback, thank you so much. It’s such a great opportunity to build a our dream family home but I can’t afford to take a risk where I can’t guarantee a water supply now and in the future, obviously.

 

I need to do more research so I can weigh everything up. The seller is happy for us to tap into their supply but as one of you have said, what if they sell and the new owner has a problem with it.. or the pressure / flow is compromised. Feels too risky, however water tight our legal contract might be, if there is such a thing. And I’m still unclear about the legalities of it anyway. Would love to know if any of you do…?

 

I love the idea of a borehole and having our own supply, I’d probably do it even if we had our own mains supply -  but I just don’t understand it well enough yet to weigh up the risks in relation to this purchase. Seems like the borehole needs to be put in to know for sure. I can’t even contemplate the word of a water diviner…. I’m a natural born skeptic unfortunately. 
 

My current feeling is I can’t proceed with the purchase unless I have a) a very successful operating borehole fully installed AND b) a bullet proof legal agreement with the current and any future owner that I can share water in perpetuity if the borehole dried out (if this is even a thing)…

 

Such a shame. We were all so excited. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by YeBullen

[Lorenz]

How many and how close are trees? I know something I overlooked when I was halfway off grid was rainwater collection, you can do it yourself or have a company set it up for you. It is a great deal cheaper than a borehole. Some farms are using this.

[markocosic]

I wouldn't sweat it.

 

 

Budget for the borehole...

 

...but tap into the neighbours supply for the initial build and for as long as you're able to do so in order to save on faff initially.

 

 

Private re-supply is fine. Pop a meter in. Where the water was originally supplied by 'the water board' they are legally only allowed to recharge what they paid plus a £10 admin fee. 

 

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/households/your-water-bill/waterresale/

 

(but could also reasonably charge you rental for running the pipe across their land; with the right to terminate with X months notice; etc - something that they would be wise to do such that they're able to sell their home in the years to come without there being a legal embuggerance preventing it)

 

 

Sewage will cost you more to install and maintain than the borehole.

 

 

Electricity and internets might be the bigger question. Those you can't just dig yourself and you may end up trenching in supplies for 1 km after all. (again potentially not the end of the world vs build cost)

[Jilly]

A friend who works for Anglia Water told me it is possible to have a sub meter in situations like this. They don't advertise it of course. 

 

 

[Conor]

You're only 3-4 miles away from a set of boreholes that produce nealy 5000m3 per day between them, and in the same geology. You'll have no issues. 

 

I proceed on the assumption that you'll need a reasonably large chunk of cash to get a water supply, be it your own borehole or a new water main connection. You'll most likely not be able to use your neighbour's.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Conor

[Lorenz]

For internet, Starlink is maybe available or available soon, and if you are going to be making a house from the barn or building one maybe a Tesla roof or other system.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, YeBullen said:

My current feeling is I can’t proceed with the purchase unless I have a) a very successful operating borehole fully installed

Why ..? You spend £10k or so drilling a hole on someone’s land and then make them an offer ..?  Will cost you about £100/m to drill, a pump is about £400 and then the treatment will be between £500-2000 depending on what you need in terms of filtration, UV and metals etc. none of which is unreasonable. 
 

Two other questions … slightly related !

 

How do you know the main is over 1km away and the neighbour is connected to that ..?

 

How are you accessing the land etc as the Right of Way may also be useful for services. 

[Nickfromwales]

Get the seller to pay for a water supply, howsoever achieved, as this obviously needs doing by somebody at some stage. If I was selling I’d do one or the other and say “serviced dwelling” and then await a quicker simpler sale with the costs recovered therein.

Kick in the nuts is, if you get the supply in, first, then you may need to relocate the equipment later. Allow for that consideration in your factoring  

[YeBullen]

19 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Why ..? You spend £10k or so drilling a hole on someone’s land and then make them an offer ..?  Will cost you about £100/m to drill, a pump is about £400 and then the treatment will be between £500-2000 depending on what you need in terms of filtration, UV and metals etc. none of which is unreasonable. 
 

Two other questions … slightly related !

 

How do you know the main is over 1km away and the neighbour is connected to that ..?

 

How are you accessing the land etc as the Right of Way may also be useful for services. 

If the seller agrees to me drilling on their land. And I spend £15k. But I’m an unlucky bugger who doesn’t strike sufficient water I’ll be £15k down with no way of recovering.

 

Or, I do strike water and the sale falls through for whatever reason. I’m stuffed again.

 

I don’t think the seller has enough money to do the work, she has said as much to me (she needs to sell to pay somebody for the plans / planning application etc).

 

I’ve contacted the water companies and they have sent me a map. The route looks impossible to me. Maybe it isn’t but the seller has said there is no way the private land owners will allow access anyway.

 

It’s basically a large farm with manor houses, oasts, small cottages dotted around. The seller owns a cottage and this land and barn is owned by her.

[Jilly]

Yup, self building messes with your head sometimes! Welcome. 

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, Lorenz said:

How many and how close are trees? I know something I overlooked when I was halfway off grid was rainwater collection, you can do it yourself or have a company set it up for you. It is a great deal cheaper than a borehole. Some farms are using this.

I asked about this.

not accepted in scotland by defra 

all things possible

but getting any air bourne contamination +those from farm fertilisers  or application of slurry to fields  out of it  would be a worry 

 different if you were taking from a stream cascading down a stone mountain side maybe in very rural area

 where I am its all granite and great for bore holes as little cassing required and you get the water from the cracks in the rock --so no silting up as you can get if you taking it from a sand layer 

speak to bore hole company who drill in your arae

Edited September 19, 2021 by scottishjohn

[Lorenz]

This is Scotland; 

 

[ToughButterCup]

You sure its not just an orange-juice harvesting system - cloudy orange juice even?

[markocosic]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Kick in the nuts is, if you get the supply in, first, then you may need to relocate the equipment later. Allow for that consideration in your factoring  

 

Do the Swedish style couplings help?

 

 

 

 

You don't want ANYTHING above ground. I'll freeze. So you drop the borehole then dig a metre or two down alongside it and tee through the side of the casing to make the water connection. The pump has a "hangar" connection on its outlet. You drop it down the hole, latch it onto the tee, and there's naff all visible / in the way above ground. (just a small service cap)

 

 

 

I'd buy - at a discount - without the water and gamble on not having any issues. The alternative is a binding contract that agrees the sale price in advance and that either (a) the sale to you will proceed or (b) if you back out then when the sale to another person happens you get your cash back. Overage is the word. Risk of people not doing what they agreed is fixed by contracts.

 

 

[YeBullen]

6 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

Do the Swedish style couplings help?

 

 

 

 

You don't want ANYTHING above ground. I'll freeze. So you drop the borehole then dig a metre or two down alongside it and tee through the side of the casing to make the water connection. The pump has a "hangar" connection on its outlet. You drop it down the hole, latch it onto the tee, and there's naff all visible / in the way above ground. (just a small service cap)

 

 

 

I'd buy - at a discount - without the water and gamble on not having any issues. The alternative is a binding contract that agrees the sale price in advance and that either (a) the sale to you will proceed or (b) if you back out then when the sale to another person happens you get your cash back. Overage is the word. Risk of people not doing what they agreed is fixed by contracts.

 

 

With (b) do you mean cash back for paying for the borehole installation?

[Lorenz]

Had this system, but it was Italian made. We had it going into the well ( more than a meter underground, I dug the trench with a jet washer) and the well had a 'Spritzer' like a mini borehole going a few metres deeper put in. Something went wrong with this coupling and had to get the plumbers in, this in minus 27. It did not freeze inside the well, not idea what went wrong as I can't see what could go wrong, so was probably the plumbers who fitted it made  some mistake.

 

[markocosic]

@YeBullen

 

You could use an overage agreement to cover the scenario where you've spent money (on a borehole or a planning application, etc) before you've bought the plot.

 

"We agree that I'm going to spend £X on this improvement and when the land is subsequently sold or transferred I will be paid £Y"

 

Usually these would be used by the seller letting you have land on the cheap (upfront) with the balance due after you increase the value of the land (e.g. by getting planning consent) but you could also use it in your scenario. 

 

https://www.taylorvinters.com/article/five-essential-factors-overage-agreements

 

 

Write down what you want to do in plain English. Ask a lawyer how to make it legal.

 

"I would like to buy this land. I am worried if there is water readily available. I agree to spend £X finding out. We agree that if the land is then sold or transferred (to anybody except me) I will be paid £Y."

 

The seller ought to agree because you will have increased the value of the land. There will be some discussion about what X and Y are.

 

Or

 

"I would like to buy this land. I am worried if there is water readily available. I agree to spend £X finding out. We agree that if I find water you will sell me the land for £Z and I will buy it. We also agree that if the land is then sold or transferred (to anybody except me) I will be paid £Y."

 

Or

 

"I would like to buy this land. I am worried if there is water readily available. I agree to spend £0.5Z on the land now. I will agree to spend £X finding out if water is readily available. I will pay you another £0.5Z if water is readily available."

 

Or

 

"I would like to buy this land. I am worried if I will get planning. I agree to spend £0.2Z on the land now. I will pay you another £0.8Z if planning can be secured."

 

etc

 

 

Don't worry about the mechanics how this is made legal. Work out what you want to do achieve first.

 

[Nickfromwales]

6 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Kick in the nuts is, if you get the supply in, first, then you may need to relocate the equipment later.

I mean the equipment downstream of the borehole. Accumulators, filters, expansion vessels and the what-not eg a plant room / space which is populated for the purposes of the investigatory works, which then is not in a convenient place when you come to renovate.

[markocosic]

I wouldn't expect any of that lot to be fitted for investigatory works. 

 

 

When we had our borehole drilled they started by digging a chuffing great hole (about the size of a small car) as a holding tank for the drilling water; then they drilled until they hit water; gave it a trial pump at the desired flowrate; then a little further etc until the desired flowrate was acheived. The final test involved dropping a temporary pump down the hole; running it at a set rate for an hour or so (hence the chuffing great hole that they can fill up during the test); and noting the "dynamic level" at your desired hourly duty flowrate.

 

 

In our case they hit an overtly clean sand layer (under a clay cap) at 35 metres so added 5 metres more and called it almost certainly good. Writeup then says:

 

Geological data:
0-21m: clay
21 to 35m: sandy clay
35 to 40m: sand

 

Borehole diameter: 125 mm
Borehole depth: 40m
Static water level: 21m
Dynamic level: 37m to 3,000 litres/hour
Recommended pump lowering level: 38m

"Borehole performance" 2400 litres/hour
"Filter level" from 35m to 38m

 

 

(rated capacity is 2400 litres/hour)

 

 

None of the "gubbins" are installed until quite a bit later. Borehole can still be in the wrong place but at this point it's just underground pipe/cable between it and the house. It would have to be very wrong (e.g wrong end of a 5 acre plot) to matter which doesn't sound like the case on an existing barn conversion?

 

 

If you need water during the build you drop a pump down the hole with an open-pipe on the end of it and an on-off switch.  Usually a cheapo Chinese one that you don't mind abusing. e.g. https://online.depo-diy.lt/products/6937#23391

 

You could build a shed full of gubbins but it'd only freeze / get driven over / pinched etc. Once the build is near complete do you trench the supply pipe into the side of the borehole, sink the pump on a permanent pipe/cable, and place all your gubbins inside the house.