unsealed terrazzo = nightmare

[Adsibob]

I've ordered some honed terrazzo. It is made/cut to order and delivered "unsealed" and "unseasoned" together with bottles of sealant called "MN Stain Stop" which is manufactured by Lithofin.

 

Just before I placed my order I was advised that "cut material should be seasoned on site as soon as possible to avoid moisture uptake which can result in picture framing and tile discolouration" (the supplier's bold emphasis, not mine). I was also advised at the time that the product had a 4-6 lead time. The wording "as soon as possible" was not elaborated on, but two weeks later when the order was miraculously ready 2-4 weeks earlier than advertised I was sent an email telling me that the order was ready together with a PDF of instructions which contained the following warning "Please note: The factory recommends that goods are laid within 4 weeks of production to avoid issues related to moisture uptake in the tile. Should you require us to store goods for a longer period, then please bear in mind that the possibility of moisture content issues increases." Production was completed about 12 days ago, so if that guidance is to be followed the clock is really ticking.

 

Since I placed the order my builder was further delayed on site meaning that we'll be lucky if he is installing the terrazo before mid July at the very earliest. To be honest, it could be August at this rate. They haven't even poured the slab, fitted the insulation, underfloor heating and screed that all has to be done before the terrazo goes down.

 

I've managed to stall the supplier for a few days but they are now insisting that it needs to be delivered pronto. In the terms and conditions they have the right to charge me storage charges if I delay, not sure if they will do that, but either way I think there is a risk that they will start to undergo "moisture uptake" whatever that is and end up with tiles that have a dark border to them (the so called "picture framing).

 

My options are accept delivery of the tiles now, and:

1. store them without sealing for a month or so and hope they don't discolour/undergo picture frame effects; or
2. ask my builder to seal them, let them dry and then store them somewhere dry. Where exactly I don't know as we're not quite water tight yet.

 

The installation instructions are a complete nightmare. They need to be laid out in the space they are supposed to be installed in for at least 24 hours to acclimatise. Then they are to be adhered to the floor with adhesive but no grout between the edges. Then one is meant to lightly sand any scratches or dirt that may have occurred during installation. Then the first coat of sealant goes on and that must be left to dry for at least 24 hours. Then one can grout them (the grouting process has a whole paragraph dedicated to it in the instructions). Once the grout is dry one has to use a special product to remove any grout stains. The one has to wait "a minimum of 24 hours but ideally 4-5 days" and seal it again. Nightmare.

 

If I go with option 2, do people think one coat of sealant will be enough? I guess a third option would be to ask the supplier if they would seal them for me before delivery, but who knows if they would do that and for how much. Really regretting purchasing these when I did, but I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't in that if I had waited until I was sure my builder would be ready for them, sod's law would have made sure that they would have been late!

 

Was hoping @nod or someone else with terrazzo experience could give me a steer.

[nod]

I think what the manufacturer is telling you is don’t store under a tarp or in a leaky garage Limestone is the same 

It’s simply not possible to have tiles land on site and start laying them 

We never seal before laying But we are very careful and used to them No daft pencil marks or excess adhesive 

 

My advise for what it’s worth would be to store them in the house or the garage on pallets Take any cling film off Avoid direct sunlight 

 

We normally seal a couple of off cuts as we’ve had sealers leaving a yellow residue 

[Adsibob]

59 minutes ago, nod said:

My advise for what it’s worth would be to store them in the house or the garage on pallets Take any cling film off Avoid direct sunlight

Thanks Nod. The problem is that we don’t have a garage and our house is a building site, dust everywhere. It’s just about dry but they are retiling the roof soon, putting in sky lights so not sure it will stay dry. Would sealing them just to be able to store them give them better protection and if so, what are the downsides of sealing when not adhered to the subfloor?

[nod]

I’d just tell them to hang on to the tiles for a few weeks 

Though they may ask you to pay for them now that they have arrived 

[markc]

Pre sealing is not a good idea for storage, you don’t want to seal the back where the adhesive will be and if you seal the top and edges but not the bottom them water uptake will be different and the tiles can cup.

as nod says, remove any shrink wrap/polythene to prevent sweating and allow air circulation, a board over the top is fine. Dust won’t hurt them.

[Adsibob]

Thought I’d update you on my ongoing nightmare. The terrazzo company agreed to store them at their warehouse for a few more weeks, but reiterated their concerns about moisture uptake. I thought by now we would be ready to tile. I couldn’t have been more wrong. Build has progressed but really far too slowly. If we are lucky, we will be ready to tile them in early October. That means 4.5 months after manufacture. Still v. annoyed this risk was not more clearly pointed out to me at the time of order. Calling on my legal knowledge, reviewing the terms and conditions and the contract they really should have raised this more clearly than they did. I could repudiate the contract and take it up with my credit card company, but I’m wondering whether beforeI do that I should try to seek a compromise with the supplier where they agree to sell me a new batch at cost price rather than force me to accept tiles that might develop picture framing effects. 
Or maybe I’m worrying about nothing - I do that a lot.

[Dave Jones]

let the supplier sell them and re-order when you are actually ready ?

[Adsibob]

7 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

let the supplier sell them and re-order when you are actually ready ?

Yeah that would be a nice solution but, supplier didn’t give me that as an option. Basically, the supplier’s position is that these are effectively “perishable” in that they need to be installed within a certain time of manufacture; and they “told” me this when I ordered because the installation instructions that were emailed to me with the invoice disclosed this. But I didn’t open the attachment entitled “installation instructions” because it didn’toccur to me tiles could be perishable.

 The more I think of it, the more I think this is a situation where the “red hand” rule from J Spurling Ltd v Bradshaw [1956] EWCA Civ 3 would apply, where Lord Denning said this:

… the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it. Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink on the face of the document with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient.

 

[Dave Jones]

dont you have enough hassle with building a house without all that nonsense over some tiles ?

[Adsibob]

4 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

dont you have enough hassle with building a house without all that nonsense over some tiles ?

Exactly. Tiles should be an easy purchase. If they had been clearer in the shop I would have just bought them when we were ready for them. I thought I was being sensible by buying everything so it was ready for the builder.

[Ferdinand]

Does it help to dehumidify them for a few days before laying?

[LA3222]

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

But I didn’t open the attachment entitled “installation instructions” because it didn’toccur to me tiles could be perishable.

I sympathise with your situation but I find this extremely difficult to believe. Whenever I get an email from a supplier I always open all attachments and have a mooch through them. They are sending you them for a reason.

 

You may be able to argue this but it seems dubious to me - I'm no legal expert to be sure?‍♂️

[Faz]

4 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Yeah that would be a nice solution but, supplier didn’t give me that as an option. Basically, the supplier’s position is that these are effectively “perishable” in that they need to be installed within a certain time of manufacture; and they “told” me this when I ordered because the installation instructions that were emailed to me with the invoice disclosed this. But I didn’t open the attachment entitled “installation instructions” because it didn’toccur to me tiles could be perishable.

 The more I think of it, the more I think this is a situation where the “red hand” rule from J Spurling Ltd v Bradshaw [1956] EWCA Civ 3 would apply, where Lord Denning said this:

… the more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be given of it. Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink on the face of the document with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient.

 

I don't think it going to help on site to 'over legalise' mate - you are going to get to the slugs in ginger beer point if you are not careful. 

 

Stuff happens and you have to deal with it - I ordered the trusses for the P1&2 garages on 19th July thru the merch - the truss supplier called me on something else earlier in the week and I asked how they were going and they said they had no order.  Felt like throwing the toys out of the pram but just asked the merch to exercise what influence they can - they know the f up is theirs after all.

[SteamyTea]

On 07/08/2021 at 12:02, Adsibob said:

should try to seek a compromise with the supplier where they agree to sell me a new batch at cost price rather than force me to accept tiles that might develop picture framing effects. 

Won't they just sell you the same tiles, just pretending they are new.

 

We used to make tooling for concrete moulding. We specified a very complicated process for applying release agents, knowing that they would never be done on site.

Still did not stop trucks driving over them and failure to remove retaining bolts. Made for an easy £1000 every time I had to go to site to point out it was the customer error.

[SteamyTea]

On 07/08/2021 at 12:02, Adsibob said:

picture framing effects

What does this actually mean?

[Adsibob]

16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

What does this actually mean?

This, ie the porous tile absorbs moisture around the edges of the tile so that it darkens/looks damp around the edges.

 

[Adsibob]

22 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Won't they just sell you the same tiles, just pretending they are new.

Yes, but that would be fraudulent, and actionable. 

[Adsibob]

Thought I'd update the thread and tell you how the terrazzo installation went.

I previously said:

 

On 07/08/2021 at 12:02, Adsibob said:

If we are lucky, we will be ready to tile them in early October. That means 4.5 months after manufacture

Well, they were only installed in February, so some 9 months or so after manufacture. During that time they were stored indoors with 1cm wooden spacers between them in a fairly well ventilated area where relative humidity was generally below 55%. In the last couple of weeks before installation, we even brought in some dehumidifiers that brought the overall RH down to about 40% to 44%.

 

They were then laid, then left to dry for about a week (although most of that time they were covered in cardboard, which I wasn't happy about but which the builder assured me would still let them breathe).

 

Last week we cleaned them with Lithofin MN Power Clean and then they were sealed with Lithofin MN Stain Stop. I don't know whether the tiler used just one coat of sealant or two, but if only one there is still time to add another coat as they've not been grouted yet. There is some discrepancy between the tiles as they presently look, and what we were expecting based on the sample; see picture below which shows the sample on top of the tile. As should be visible from this photo, the sample has more of a sheen to it and the colours are slightly more vibrant, with more contrast.

 

Oddly, when I raised this with the supplier they told me the samples are not sealed and they just get that more polished look from people handling them in the shop.

 

 

Should I:

1. stick to the installation instructions which is to put another coat of Lithofin MN Stain Stop sealant (if indeed tiler has only done one coat), then grout, wait for grout to dry then two more coats of Lithofin MN Stain Stop sealant; OR
2. switch to a "colour enhancing sealant" such as Lithofin MN Colour Intensifier, although I see that on the description of that product, it states "Please Note: for protecting polished and very finely honed natural and artificial stones, we recommend Lithofin MN Stain-Stop" so maybe terrazzo, bring a combination of portland cement and natural stone falls into that category?

Maybe @nod can come to my rescue and provide some tips.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Adsibob

[Mr Punter]

I have had a very similar look on some granite tiles when they were installed and after about 6 months it faded away.  Do you have an up-to-date picture?

[Adsibob]

Not sure why previous photo upload failed. Here it is again (the small tile on top is the sample, the large tile below is my new floor).

[Adsibob]

On 05/03/2022 at 16:31, Mr Punter said:

I have had a very similar look on some granite tiles when they were installed and after about 6 months it faded away.  Do you have an up-to-date picture?

So the supposedly breathable cardboard that has been covering the still ungrouted tiles was taken up a couple of days ago. Unfortunately, we have some picture frame staining, which must be from the manufacturing process (which involves water jet cutting) and then the delay:

 

 

not grouted yet, but I fear there is no solution to this and that when we grout, it could get worse as the grout is water based.

 

Have the UFH running 24\7 now, for the last 36h and hoping over the next week it evaporates, but who knows.  

 

[Adsibob]

Just wondered if anyone had any experience of getting water stains out of terrazzo? I’ve seen in some websites that for general staining, rubbing with hydrogen peroxide and then with ammonia can clean terrazzo, but that sounds rather harsh.

 

@nod do you know if it’s possible to get rid of subtle picture framing staining, which appears to just be stained with water, but definitely dry now (was laid a few months ago and has had quite a bit of UFH, including constantly for the last 48h.

[Adsibob]

Thought I'd update this to say that in the end, the supplier was wrong. They weren't water stains - or if they were, the stains were polished out with some grinding. Only compromise is that the finish has come out with a slightly higher level of sheen than you would have from properly honed tiles, but it's not glossy and looks very good, so generally very happy with the outcome. Just an issue with some of the grouting...

Edited September 5, 2022 by Adsibob

[Temp]

Google suggests you can buy matt stone sealer but not used it myself. 

 

We just used regular lithofin. Its pretty matt but gets a soft sheen in trafficked areas over time.