Architect or quantity surveyor to project manage my build or both?

[David_haswell]

I am about to go out to tender on a revised house extension with a budget of roughly £120k which will include significant garden works. I have already paid the architect for full building control approval which has passed. I have arranged for the architect to "project manage the build", for which they charge 12% (10% + 2% VAT). No where do does the architect actually say that they will project manage the build. What their job will involve will be being the go between between myself and the main contractor. Their role on site will be to make sure the contractor follows their plans correctly and uses the materials they have specified. They are missing the financial side of things and with their percentage fee do not have much motivation to help keep costs down.

 

I have already spent a considerable sum with the architect especially with the changes I have made with the plans.

 

My main worry is if I use the architect with their preferred contractors costs will spiral out of control. I feel the architect loves fancy projects and does not seem to pay much attention to actual costs. I had a set budget in mind but towards the end of the design stage the architect informed me that they thought the costs would exceed my budget. In the end I took the decision myself to reduce costs and did a large redesign for which the architect charged me £65 an hour.

 

Having spoken with a friend who has had a recent bad experience with a builder they advised me to get a quantity surveyor on board to help keep costs down and for them to negotiate with contractors to make sure contractors were not taking the micky. They advised me to get the whole job priced up with the quantity surveyor before I put it out to tender. They also advised that I should try and lower my fees with the architect if I also bring on a quantity surveyor on board. I do not really want to be paying both an architect and a quantity surveyor as well as the high prices a main contractor is likely to charge.

 

I am wondering what to do. Do I just ditch the architect altogether and get a quantity surveyor to project manage instead? Is there any likely hood the architect will agree to lowering their fees if responsibly is shared with a quantity surveyor? Can a quantity surveyor replace the architect at the build stage as they would likely have a lot of the architect skills but with the added benefit of knowing how much everything will cost.

 

Many thanks

[markc]

On a very big project then a QS would be a worthwhile expense but on an extension and £120K ish then i would say no. Im sure you can list all the materials and items needed in a few hours and make a decent guess at what it will cost. A QS comes into their own when there are big/many  changes to a project.

If you are unsure of a few things, ask on here

[Bonner]

Unless it is a really unusual construction, get a online cost estimate done. Tender for fixed price quotes and let the main contractor manage the build. The main challenge is finding a good builder. Local through recommendations and references is best.

[David_haswell]

50 minutes ago, Bonner said:

Unless it is a really unusual construction, get a online cost estimate done. Tender for fixed price quotes and let the main contractor manage the build. The main challenge is finding a good builder. Local through recommendations and references is best.

 

The architect is keen the get the tenders out and they have been contacting the contractors. I have all the contractors details myself. I actually still need the architect as they have submitted the plans for building control approval. But once I receive the building control approval should I just ditch the architect and handle the tendering process myself?

 

I spoke with the QS and he told me to get rid of the architect and let the main contractor project manage as has been suggested here. The QS told me they will do a price list out for a fee. I am wondering should I let the QS quote me for the materials and if he is only charging say £1k go with him. Or would you suggest I get the cost estimate online?

[Gus Potter]

Hi David.

 

I have copied you text in italic and comment in line. Hope this helps a bit and maybe others too.

 

I am about to go out to tender on a revised house extension with a budget of roughly £120k which will include significant garden works. I have already paid the architect for full building control approval which has passed. 

 

The level of drawing detail for building control approval is often only sufficient for the purpose of obtaining approval and often falls short of the detail required from a full set of detailed construction drawings, call these the builder's working drawings. In Scotland for example I have seen council "warrant drawings" (~ BC drawings England) that just quote clauses in the regs to the effect that x has to comply with reg y. Gets the approval but unless you and the builder, know the regs and how to comply with them then..it's a lottery.

 

I have arranged for the architect to "project manage the build", for which they charge 12% (10% + 2% VAT). No where do does the architect actually say that they will project manage the build.

 

This all sounds a bit vague. Your Architect/ Designer should have explained to you the various options you have and outlined the standard forms of JCT contract for example that are suitable for a domestic 120k project. Below is a link that may help give some clarity and a few pointers to finding what suits you.

 

https://www.jctltd.co.uk/product/building-contract-and-consultancy-agreement-for-a-home-owner-occupier

 

 What their job will involve will be being the go between between myself and the main contractor. Their role on site will be to make sure the contractor follows their plans correctly and uses the materials they have specified. They are missing the financial side of things and with their percentage fee do not have much motivation to help keep costs down.

 

I have already spent a considerable sum with the architect especially with the changes I have made with the plans.

 

As a rough rule of thumb if say you are doing an extension at 120k. I'm guessing David, but say you are taking the back off the house and extending.. so it's not just a big box built onto the back of the house ( bit more complex.. rewiring inside the old house and so on) then say ball park ~10 -12% for the Design and SE for the steel work other bits and bobs, and most importantly a good set of SE details. Now to do a full set of construction details, tender this on behalf of the Client, administer the contract (take care of your money,  programme), supervise the quality of the work (old Clerk of works function), be on hand  to jump to site to resolve technical issues, sign it off as ok,  then you can double this to 25%. 

 

Now that is a chunk of the budget but in return you pass pretty much most of the liability to the Consultants who pick up the tab if it goes pear shaped.. When you buy a Mercedes with a ten year warranty / personal service consider how much that costs in real terms. There is a significant premium to this reassurance / reducing risk.. say the on board computer won't blow up? they don't blow sparks at most apparently.. they just stop working.

 

My main worry is if I use the architect with their preferred contractors costs will spiral out of control. I feel the architect loves fancy projects and does not seem to pay much attention to actual costs. I had a set budget in mind but towards the end of the design stage the architect informed me that they thought the costs would exceed my budget. In the end I took the decision myself to reduce costs and did a large redesign for which the architect charged me £65 an hour.

 

Your worry is justified. I would mull it over, then work out how to communicate your concerns to the Architect, phone them and back it up with an email. As a word of encouragement don't worry about not "knowing enough" , the law is pretty clear on this as you are a domestic client and it cuts you a bit more slack. I hope that your Architect has been a bit more forthcoming  in the detail than your post description.

 

If you want to explore more..then funnily this is much underpinned by the CDM regulations which are to do with safety, but this weaves into how you approach the type of dilemma you face. I get a bit of feedback from Architect's and Designers who are twigging that even when they at say stage 1 or 2 of the RIBA plan of work they are on the hook much more than they realise, and one way they are on the hook is by not communicating effectively with the Client in terms of making mention of the CDM regulations, how information is processed, clarity of / and the correct contract (the standard ones cover this) to ensure the job can be built safely and so on.  I hope that this has been touched on and explained to you by your Architect but have not posted here for brevity.

 

The CDM regs apply at concept design stage.. comments welcome.

 

See link below for previous RIBA plan of work.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=RIBA+plan+of+work

 

To sum above up, for the extra 10 - 12 % you should be getting all this information at the least, all spelt out in laymans terms.

 

Having spoken with a friend who has had a recent bad experience with a builder they advised me to get a quantity surveyor on board to help keep costs down and for them to negotiate with contractors to make sure contractors were not taking the micky. They advised me to get the whole job priced up with the quantity surveyor before I put it out to tender. They also advised that I should try and lower my fees with the architect if I also bring on a quantity surveyor on board. I do not really want to be paying both an architect and a quantity surveyor as well as the high prices a main contractor is likely to charge.

 

I am wondering what to do. Do I just ditch the architect altogether and get a quantity surveyor to project manage instead? Is there any likely hood the architect will agree to lowering their fees if responsibly is shared with a quantity surveyor? Can a quantity surveyor replace the architect at the build stage as they would likely have a lot of the architect skills but with the added benefit of knowing how much everything will cost.

 

You have already paid your Architect a fee. You could give them a jolt once you have digested the info above. See what happens and get some clarity on what there are offering to do/ extent of liability before you spend more money on other professional fees.

 

Hope this helps give you some food for thought.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Gus Potter

[David_haswell]

Hi Gus

 

Thank you for that detailed response. I gather then that the architect does add value by giving me insurance if something goes wrong with the contractor. Is it also fair to say if I find a good contractor to begin with the contractor would have skills to work around building control without the need of the architect.

 

How I view it is if the Architect is recommending contractors that they have worked with before they must have had positive experiences with them in the past to continue using them. So if I go direct to the same contractors as the architect has used previously I should expect plain sailing ahead?

 

Is it possible for me to purchase an off the shelf contract template that I could complete with the contractor cutting out the architect?

 

When first speaking with the architect I was given the RIBA plan of work. But I have not heard anything about CDM regulations.

 

I think I would be more comfortable if I could negotiate with the architect the 12% fee @ a fixed £100k as that was the original budget. If my quotes come back at £130k I save the 12% on the £30k.

[Gus Potter]

5 minutes ago, David_haswell said:

Hi Gus

 

Thank you for that detailed response. I gather then that the architect does add value by giving me insurance if something goes wrong with the contractor. Is it also fair to say if I find a good contractor to begin with the contractor would have skills to work around building control without the need of the architect.

 

How I view it is if the Architect is recommending contractors that they have worked with before they must have had positive experiences with them in the past to continue using them. So if I go direct to the same contractors as the architect has used previously I should expect plain sailing ahead?

 

Is it possible for me to purchase an off the shelf contract template that I could complete with the contractor cutting out the architect?

 

When first speaking with the architect I was given the RIBA plan of work. But I have not heard anything about CDM regulations.

 

I think I would be more comfortable if I could negotiate with the architect the 12% fee @ a fixed £100k as that was the original budget. If my quotes come back at £130k I save the 12% on the £30k.

Hello David.

 

Yes once I started writing it started to grow arms and legs! Again for simplicity I copy and past, respond in line. Please excuse my spelling grammer, I'm just jotting down my thoughts.

 

Thank you for that detailed response. I gather then that the architect does add value by giving me insurance if something goes wrong with the contractor.

 

Think about getting a formal contract in place here.

 

Roughly:

 

If your designer is supervising the workmanship, authorising the staged payments to the builder, that the work is up to scratch, the correct materials have been brought to site, looked after and installed correctly then they are generally liable for your money.  It's a big ask hence the fee ~ 25% I mentioned earlier. Also, when you take on this professional role you have to wear a different hat.

 

Many folk on BH employ Designers to bat for their side, say with the Planners. But when you manage/ supervise / sign off on a job you have to be fair and equitable to "The Client" and the "Contractor" Often there is conflict and this takes time and effort to manage these relationships..and that costs money, particularly as it's not that much fun to be in the middle of two sets of folk that often don't see eye to eye.

 

If the builder goes bust and the designer has spent (signed off on) more of your money than they should have then they are liable for the differance. What they are not liable for example is the cost you may incurr if the builder does go bust and the new one charges you more, provided that the due dillegance financial checks have been carried out. Yes you often have a retention / you can get a bond et.. but you can see the cost of this is escalating.

 

In summary if your designer gives you good advise, puts a good (industry recognised) contract in place and steps up to the plate liability wise then you get some protection. Given what you have posted it seems to me that your designer wants to have the fee with limited liability.

 

Is it also fair to say if I find a good contractor to begin with the contractor would have skills to work around building control without the need of the architect.

 

Yes they will but they will also work around you too so logic then dictates that they are not a good responsible contractor. If they are willing to con BC what stops them conning you? Do you think that just because you are paying the bill they will look after you.. they are there to make money!

 

Maybe you won't get what you think you are paying for. Many of the building regs are really good, sensible, they keep us safe and maintain the value of our property when you sell on or borrow against it. You get a few folk bending the rules too far, even on BH!

 

How I view it is if the Architect is recommending contractors that they have worked with before they must have had positive experiences with them in the past to continue using them. So if I go direct to the same contractors as the architect has used previously I should expect plain sailing ahead?

 

No. Go out and get some independant quotes, if they are high / too low phone up the folk and ask why they are so high / low. Gather that info and go back to your Architect. Ask for an explanation. If you do this then you could win a watch by getting a builder via the Architect at a fair negotiated price.

 

Don't try and go behind the Architect's back by going direct.. they will probably find you out within 24 hours and you will have lost any moral high ground. In fact the cost may go up as they may look at you as some chancer, of course forgetting any hypocrisy they may be indulging in themselves.

 

Is it possible for me to purchase an off the shelf contract template that I could complete with the contractor cutting out the architect?

 

Yes see link below for some pointers.

 

https://www.jctltd.co.uk/product/building-contract-for-a-home-owner-occupier

 

Also, see lots of advice on the internet... but at 120K you are taking a chance. I would put in a lot of work into your research on the risk / cost benefit.

 

When first speaking with the architect I was given the RIBA plan of work. But I have not heard anything about CDM regulations.

 

Ah.. have a look at the HSE website for home owners etc. As an overview as soon as an Architect / Designer steps into the world of supervision, tendering etc then they are well within the CDM regs. Your designer has made suggestions regarding selection of contractors.. by now they should be flagging this stuff up to you, a term " Principle Designer" is a key word with some paper work that explains how all this fits together.

 

I think I would be more comfortable if I could negotiate with the architect the 12% fee @ a fixed £100k as that was the original budget. If my quotes come back at £130k I save the 12% on the £30k.

 

I would take a step back here, get some independent quotes, post more questions on BH, maybe some drawings.  Plenty folk here that know their stuff.  BH is also poplulated by a fair handful of Contractors, Architects, SEs, experienced DIY folk that probably know what is a good price for your area.

 

Lastly, hope this gives you some food for thought and helps you on your way.

 

 

[DragsterDriver]

If you have deep pockets and no knowledge of building or contractors it seems a good bet if the architect is taking full legal responsibility. Everything in writing, all the time.

 

I would do this if I had proper money. 

[PeterW]

7 hours ago, David_haswell said:

Thank you for that detailed response. I gather then that the architect does add value by giving me insurance if something goes wrong with the contractor.

Unlikely as you have a contract with the contractor and the architect and there is no tripartite agreement in place so the architect is liable for nothing 

 

4 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

 

 

I would take a step back here, get some independent quotes, post more questions on BH, maybe some drawings.  Plenty folk here that know their stuff.  BH is also poplulated by a fair handful of Contractors, Architects, SEs, experienced DIY folk that probably know what is a good price for your area.

Yep I would agree and get independent quotes. Just because an architect recommends someone doesn’t mean they are good. 
 

On a £100-120k project I would be using a QS and main contractor on a fixed price to watertight and then subcontract the remaining in easy packages. 

[Bonner]

I can’t  argue with any of the advice given here, only to say there are different routes depending on your attitude to risk vs cost.

If you are prepared to take an active role one approach could be:

1. Architect for planning and building control approval (plus additional construction drawings if required)
2. QS or on-line estimate for costing (for comparison of quotations)
3. Manage the tendering process yourself (get to know the builders; look for recommendations, take up references)
4. Main contractor to act as project manager (with oversight by yourself)

This is the route I have folllowed on previous extension projects and going down now with a complete new build.

[the_r_sole]

There's a bit of confusion here, the architect would act as a contract administrator whilst the work is on site - not a project manager (a QS might also do this role which is why they'll be advising to ditch the architect)

If you're at the stage of nearly building and you haven't got enough trust in your architect that they're not acting in your best interest then don't go any further - contrary to popular belief I've never worked with any architect who would deliberately inflate costs to get more fees, they also should have zero financial incentive to steer you to their "preferred" contractors  - that would be contrary to the code of conduct (and pointless)

As mentioned, building control drawings are not construction drawings and won't have enough information to build from, so you're much more at the mercy of a contractor making assumptions if that's what you use as a basis for a contract, also if you're borrowing money to do the work you may find that a mortgage provider requires details of the contract being used and details of the contract administrator...

But as I said earlier, if you've got this far any you don't trust the architect there's something very wrong in the relationship so probably not worth continuing with them - if one of my clients told me they were worried I would inflate costs for my own gain on their project that would be a red flag which would end my involvement.

[Gus Potter]

@the_r_sole

 

My thoughts on this

 

"There's a bit of confusion here, the architect would act as a contract administrator whilst the work is on site - not a project manager "

 

Good point as there is a big difference between the two. For all you can find stuff on the net about this but simplistically an administrator handles the paper work.. on a small domestic project it is usually the builder that organises the day to day sequencing of trades, running of the job and standard of workmanship.

 

"(a QS might also do this role which is why they'll be advising to ditch the architect)"

 

Food for thought. Any construction professional that makes such recommendations should only take this course of action when it can be backed up by evidence of failure to perform.  Unless of course they wish to commit professional suicide or attract a legal response.

 

"If you're at the stage of nearly building and you haven't got enough trust in your architect that they're not acting in your best interest then don't go any further - contrary to popular belief I've never worked with any architect who would deliberately inflate costs to get more fees, they also should have zero financial incentive to steer you to their "preferred" contractors  - that would be contrary to the code of conduct (and pointless)"

 

Agree with the Sole. In any profession you get the odd bad apple but consider that Architect's, SE's, QS's often spend between 4 -5 years at uni, another 3 - 5 years training post graduation and another 3 -5 years becoming modestly competant. Even then they still have to continually train and complete CPD. Basically it can take you 12 - 15 years to get to a level where you can practice competantly. There is absolutely no incentive to bend the rules for some short term financial gain.

 

"As mentioned, building control drawings are not construction drawings and won't have enough information to build from, so you're much more at the mercy of a contractor making assumptions if that's what you use as a basis for a contract, also if you're borrowing money to do the work you may find that a mortgage provider requires details of the contract being used and details of the contract administrator... "

 

Well articulated by the sole.

 

"But as I said earlier, if you've got this far any you don't trust the architect there's something very wrong in the relationship so probably not worth continuing with them - if one of my clients told me they were worried I would inflate costs for my own gain on their project that would be a red flag which would end my involvement. "

 

Yes agree with the sole..but I would always explore why they think this way. Often it's just nerves that get the better of folk and they say daft things. A good professional who is used to dealing with domestic clients will appreciate that you may be nervous and seek to resolve this trust issue.  If any advisor / designer fails to address your concerns then part company with them before you start spending big sums of money.