Gabions as garden fence anchors?

[Hillydevon]

Hi all. I'm helping out a friend who has a very sorry looking perimeter fence. It's a run of those el cheapo panels - about 15m - which have been battered to smithreens by the elements (quite exposed and does get a hammering).

My thought for a low-tech, concrete-free solution was to fix posts onto breeze blocks using proprietary plate thingies, sit them in gabions and fill with whatever stone can be sourced. Then use scaffold boards horizontally, alternating them each side of the post to give a solid appearance but also allow air flow. 

Anyone got two cents' worth to chuck in?? Thanks in advance! 

[Crofter]

Is there something stopping him from being able to dig a hole? Concrete is not scary, you can use postcrete if you really want.

[Ferdinand]

Let me try some pertinent questions that may I hope help.

 

What is the cost per metre of your solution?

 

What is the required height? How long must it last? What job is the fence to do? What are the ground conditions? Can it be seethrough?

 

Have you built a test panel and did it stand up? What size gabions are you aiming for?

 

I would expect scaffold planks to be hellishly heavy to support and for it to perhaps blow over unless you use large gabions. Small gabions seem to start at £15 each.

 

I use three types of garden fence myself plus hedges.

 

One is hammered in 8ft 4" or 5" round tantalised posts, for which I pay about £3 each, and leave at 6ft high, and join them by decent closeboard 6'x6' fence panels at about £25 each wedged one brick off the ground and screwed using Wickes green outdoor screws. This will last 5-10 years and can be shelter while a hedge is established, or a building site next door is being built. Materials are about £13-15 per metre, and can usually be reused two or three times for panels, twice for the posts.

 

The second is substantial concrete slotted posts at perhaps 3m postcreted in and using a 6" or 12" gravel board and the similar panels. This should last 15-20 years, and the posts and gravel boards should last 40 years. This is approx £25-30 per metre for materials. The best place for Postcrete is nearly always Wickes.

 

The third is using 3" round posts at 5'6" or 1.6m long, which cost me about £1.50 each. These are hammered in and joined by anything from a single or two strands of wire to half rounds to make a ranch style fence. WIth two layers of half rounds and posts at 2m this will cost about £4-5 per metre in materials.

 

Type one and type 3 could also be used to supported chain link or sheep mesh or dog mesh. And postrammers are worth their weight in caviar.

 

Perhaps scaffold planks could slide into slotted concrete posts but they will need to be treated and kept off the ground.

 

If I need something elegant I would use wrought iron Estate Fencing or posher panels such as Hit and Miss or palisade. Or a hedge.

 

For a hedge I would use hawthorn laid properly every generation, or privet or perhaps holly .. or gorse or myrtle if really exposed to sea winds. Or beech or hornbeam for a semi evergreen or semi evergreen for a heavy soil. Or a mixture. WIth the occasional bush allowed to reach 4m for birds to roost.

 

I think you are probably flogging a dead horse with gabions and scaffold planks and stone unless one or two of them comes for free. Of course I could be wrong.

 

Everything is tanellised, and apart from the panels I buy at an agricultural supplier. Farmers usually know best how to get value for money. You may be stiffed for delivery costs - collect or negotiate if you can.

 

OTOH 15m is a nice short fence! A young friend who has just moved in to his first house has just discovered that properly fencing in a 50m garden all round to be dog proof and attractive easily costs more than a new central heating system :-).

 

Anyhoo, write down your options and add up the costs. For that length it may be worth paying someone unless you want the fun of building it.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

You can always fix posts with those long steel earth spikes, that take a standard fence post in the socket on top.  Not my favourite method, but quick and easy to do and only needs a sledge hammer and block to drive the spikes in (with a level to get them vertical).  You then just bolt the new posts in place, into the sockets on the top of the spikes.

[Hillydevon]

Many thanks for all that input, guys!

Agree that it needs costing, and that could vary enormously depending on whether the three elements in the mix can be sourced economically. OK, not talking about 50m - that's a substantial run! - but even 50ft wouldn't come in cheap, I guess, for a decent quality  close-boarded job. Plus, as stated, that would still give a large surface area for high winds to hit, which is why I wondered about the hit-and-miss method. 

Should have said that it backs onto a garage block, hence (a) not the prettiest and (b) will have people trundling up and down it. Height, therfore, would be in the 6ft region, and really  needs to be opaque. 

Also thought that many people seem to use gabions as features... benches, planters etc, so it would double as a host for some kind of climbing plant down the road (fingers definitely not green so nothing to suggest in that dept!)

many thanks again.... more mulling in order, nothing set in stone yet ( no pun intended!!) 

Cheers, 

Tim

[Declan52]

Instead of using planks, heavy and expensive, used lengths of 4*1. Much cheaper and will give more slots which will look nicer and allow more airflow. If you really want it to look tasty use 2*1, 4*1,6*1 and alternate them with a 10mm slot between each board.

Gabions would be very labour intensive plus expensive. Dig a hole and use timber/concrete post and use postcrete.

 

[ProDave]

+1 to dig a hole and postcrete a post into it.  A half way house I often do, is dig a hole to part depth, then use a post with a pointed end and hammer the post in as far as it will go then postcrete in the hole.  the important thing being you only need a small hole (I use a 6" "ladies spade" and  you want nice parallel sides to the hole, not a V shaped hole.  Then just pour the postctrete in dry and pour water on it. It sets in minutes.

 

As to panels, buy 6" treated fencing planks and nail them horizontally alternating between one side of the post and the other. A lot lighter and cheaper than scaffold boards. This method lets a lot of the wind through so the loading on the posts is a lot less than a solid fence panel.
 

[Ferdinand]

Here's one I prepared last week.

 

An example of a couple of types I talked about above. 1 - Knocked in posts and fence panels on their third use,  2 - fairly dense ranch-style fencing, 3 - post and rail with 2 rails and wire dog-mesh plus strainer wires. 2 and 3 have been in 5 years. 1 went in last Thursday.

 

The one in the background is the same length run as yours and took 2 of us a short morning.

 

 

A detail of attaching panels to knocked in posts - alternating side to allow space to attach to the post and to allow a little adjustment.

 

 

I would strongly argue against postcreteing in wooden posts, as they will rot more quickly and the stuff will be a pain to get out, and an even bigger pain to repair when a single post goes - you will have to dismantle it and dig out the concrete, or insert a repair spur and use a big block to bridge the concrete plus bolt right through.

 

Either knock in wooden posts like a farmer or postcrete in something concrete that will outlast your friend.

 

From the conversation, I think for the security aspect you perhaps want a properly done 2m paid-for fence (prob £700 or so), and then add trellis to the top after a couple of months and perhaps some pyracanthas on the inside side. 

 

Also, anything horizontal will provide footholds.

 

F

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Hillydevon]

Many thanks for all that input, guys!

Agree that it needs costing, and that could vary enormously depending on whether the three elements in the mix can be sourced economically. OK, not talking about 50m - that's a substantial run! - but even 50ft wouldn't come in cheap, I guess, for a decent quality  close-boarded job. Plus, as stated, that would still give a large surface area for high winds to hit, which is why I wondered about the hit-and-miss method. 

Should have said that it backs onto a garage block, hence (a) not the prettiest and (b) will have people trundling up and down it. Height, therfore, would be in the 6ft region, and really  needs to be opaque. 

Also thought that many people seem to use gabions as features... benches, planters etc, so it would double as a host for some kind of climbing plant down the road (fingers definitely not green so nothing to suggest in that dept!)

many thanks again.... more mulling in order, nothing set in stone yet ( no pun intended!!) 

Cheers, 

Tim

[pudding]

What about concreting in plastic/recycled wood like this? http://www.kedel.co.uk/recycled-mixed-plastic-lumber/recycled-mixed-plastic-square-post-with-point-90mm-x-90mm.html

 

I'm thinking of maybe using these as fence posts then horizontal hit and miss timber for a fence later this year, in the hope the posts wont rot and will last pretty much forever, or certainly longer than me.

[Crofter]

That's a heck of a price for a fencepost though. To be honest a decent wooden post can last 20 years or more, although it all depends on the quality of the wood, the treatment, and how wet the ground is.

 

Is there any room to brace the fence? That would help it stand up to the winds.

[Temp]

Those recycled plastic posts look interesting. 

 

If possible avoid using standard 75mm/3" wooden fence posts, the bigger 100mm/4" posts last a lot longer. When I put in 40m of post and rail on my own I hired one of these to do the holes..

http://i0.wp.com/www.tvtoolhire.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Hydraulic-post-hole-borer.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=242%2C242

 

The standard way to do it to use the bucket on a digger to push them in.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Temp

[Hillydevon]

There seems to be a lot of love out there for sticking wood in the ground! I guess some might argue the owner will be long gone by the time they go manky, but I kinda thought better to keep wood up in the free air flow. As for the plastic spikes, that solves the rot problem but I see even 2250 is coming out at around £30, and even that might not give enough in-ground anchorage. 

All food for thought, though - many thanks for taking the time to contribute.

Tim

[CC45]

Check out postsaver.com if you use wooden posts.  CCA is now baned so posts rot in 4 or 5 years, these products are fantastic.  Farmer friends use it - they dont spend money unless necessary.

[jack]

Interesting idea.  I thought it was just a plastic wrap, but looking more closely it appears to be a shrink-wrap tube with an internal resilient liner.  Suspect it's a bit of a faff to install, but in the context of putting up an entire fence it probably isn't that bad.

[CC45]

Pretty easy to slide tube on or wrap around post.  Needs some heat then to shrink it. Better than replacing them in 5 years time.

[ProDave]

21 hours ago, CC45 said:

Check out postsaver.com if you use wooden posts.  CCA is now baned so posts rot in 4 or 5 years, these products are fantastic.  Farmer friends use it - they dont spend money unless necessary.

My fence here has been in 10 years, the posts still seem solid and no sign of rot. Perhaps being in wet ground helps? after all it's being wet then dry that allows them to rot.
 

[Declan52]

Don't have the bottom of the post touching the ground. I set mine on a bed of concrete then filled all round them so they are sealed all around. 

I think it your fence posts only last 5 years then you have been sold pure crap. 

[CC45]

CCA was banned some time ago (5yrs or perhaps 10) - I seem to recall that proper Creosote was banned at approx the same time.  pre that the posts lasted 10yrs+.  Wet and then dry is the issue.  Im in the farming industry and there are lots of fences not lasting - you think they are loose in the ground when in fact they have rotted and its the wire thats holding the post up.

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, CC45 said:

CCA was banned some time ago (5yrs or perhaps 10) - I seem to recall that proper Creosote was banned at approx the same time.  pre that the posts lasted 10yrs+.  Wet and then dry is the issue.  Im in the farming industry and there are lots of fences not lasting - you think they are loose in the ground when in fact they have rotted and its the wire thats holding the post up.

 

(Off-topic.) 

 

Many areas of the world have not banned CCA, eg in the USA I think you can use it for foundations but not for picnic tables or climbing frames. There seems to be some work around suggesting that the risks have been exaggerated (see Wikipedia).

 

And Cresosote is not banned. Though you may not get stuff quite as usefully 'orrible as the byproducts of the gas works.

 

AIUI Creosote is merely restricted to the trade and may not be advertised to the general public, and is not allowed in domestic settings plus some other bits and pieces. You can buy creosote pressure treated fenceposts with 25 year guarantees (and also utility poles) for use on farms etc There are fencepost brands such as Fence and Forget.

 

The EU has a habit of banning things without adequate evidence on occasions, and not taking the level of exposure (rather than the existence of exposure) into account, or ignoring if a very small number of people are affected, driven by powerful lobbyists imo abusing the precautionary principle. The latest victim I have seen was the traditional perfume industry.

 

Now that we are escaping I wonder if any of this will change.

 

If I were doing a self-build in the country with a 'paddock' I would be very tempted. But most of my fences are for tenants, and I do not play games in that situation. Though if for example I was renting a field I might use it if allowed after an analysis / risk assessment.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

On 23/01/2017 at 21:27, CC45 said:

Check out postsaver.com if you use wooden posts.  CCA is now baned so posts rot in 4 or 5 years, these products are fantastic.  Farmer friends use it - they dont spend money unless necessary.

 

Following up this, I see that eg Network Rail use postsavers as a default on their posts ... as standard they use either a post boot or bitumen dip.

 

Ferdinand