Tony K Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) Hi all. My SB is within three metres of the rear elevation of my neighbours house. Between my plot and his house is a footpath about 1 metre wide. His house was built circa 1905 and then extended last year. I am excavating my plot down by 68cm, then using screw piles with a slab on top. Three questions arise: 1. A PWA is required if my footings are deeper than my neighbours, but am I comparing his footings to my 68cm excavation or to the depth of the screw piles? The screws can be unscrewed and taken away in future apparently! 2. My neighbours extension has 1m trench footings, but the original section of his house is likely to have shallower footings. Am I comparing my proposal to his deeper footings or the shallower ones? 3. Neither of us know how deep the footings under the original part of his house are. His rear wall abuts the footpath which is unmade, not adopted, has no registered owner, has rights of way on foot over it for both of us, and has a rough concrete surface with foul and surface drains set into it, including at the base of his wall. If I wanted to know how deep his original footings were then I'd have to break up the path and drains to find out. Given neither of us owns the land, I'm hesitant to do this. Is there any provision in the PWA for circumstances where the depth of a neighbours footings are unknown and cannot be ascertained? Thanks! Edited November 11, 2020 by Tony K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyshouse Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 If you are working within a meter of his new or old wall PWA applies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Your screw piles will be deeper than his footings, old or new, so you will need a pwa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Have you seen this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 The rules determine if the Party Wall Act applies BUT that doesnt necessarily mean you must have a full blown PW Agreement drawn up by expensive surveyors. Depends if you are on good terms and he's happy with the proposed work. Point out screwed piles are less disruptive than hammered or deep trench foundations. If your neighbour is happy with your plans you just need to exchange letters. Example content down this page.. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance#explanatory-booklet See.. "Example letter 8: 3/6 metre notice" And "Example letter 9: positive acknowledgement of 3/6 metre notice" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Agreed with @Temp. The simple exchange of letters will save you at least £1,000 in fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Thanks all. I have read the guidance and understand the regulations, but they don't seem to address the specifics of this case, hence my original three questions. I get on OK with the neighbour, though he is a worrier and I think he wants the PWA process so that he can get surveyors involved, all at my expense. That's his right of course, but given I've already shown him my insurance cover, and a specific piece of work from the engineer putting his name (and his professional indemnity insurance) to the fact that my work will not affect his house, that all seems a bit OTT, hence not wanting to do the PWA if I don't need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 No real choice I am afraid. I don't know why people think it offers them any protection. I guess at least the job has been looked at by quasi professionals and an award produced. If you go ahead without a Party Wall Award or agreement from the Adjoining Owner he can opt to seek an injunction. It is fairly costly for him to do but if he succeeds you are stuffed. Judges take a dim view of Building Owners ignoring the Act. It doesn't really matter how deep his foundations are unless his are also piled. If you are piling within 6 metres you need to follow the Party Wall Act. As a P.S. In the past I have just gone ahead in the past at the risk of being injuncted. I guess they thought they had more to lose if they failed in court so they did not do it. Piling was done in a couple of days. We paid to decorate their living room, which was the other side of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 52 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: It doesn't really matter how deep his foundations are unless his are also piled. If you are piling within 6 metres you need to follow the Party Wall Act. That's what I really wanted to establish. Obviously my steel screw piles will be deeper than any surrounding foundations, but do they actually count as 'foundations' for the purposes of the act? I can understand driven or bored piles being considered a foundation, but the screws can actually be taken away again, and so could perhaps be treated differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Tony K said: That's what I really wanted to establish. Obviously my steel screw piles will be deeper than any surrounding foundations, but do they actually count as 'foundations' for the purposes of the act? I can understand driven or bored piles being considered a foundation, but the screws can actually be taken away again, and so could perhaps be treated differently? They will still be counted as foundations and will not be treated differently. I know it will have no effect on your neighbour's property, but it is the law. Originally for tight knit housing in London it has been adopted for the whole of the UK. A nice earner for the surveyors. Get a price from them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Thanks @Mr Punter that's what I needed to know. All my other questions fall away in that case. I will get a price from a PW surveyor and hope my neighbour doesn't waste any more of my money. If we enter 'dispute' as its called, do I have to pay for their surveyor as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 26 minutes ago, Tony K said: If we enter 'dispute' as its called, do I have to pay for their surveyor as well? Afraid so. He doesn't even need to object, just not agree or reply. If you can both use the same surveyor the fees can be less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr Punter said: Afraid so. He doesn't even need to object, just not agree or reply. If you can both use the same surveyor the fees can be less. Yes I had seen that no response is the same as an objection, just wasn't sure about whether I paid for the lot. I'd be grateful if anyone has any suggestions on an appropriate person to act for me in the PWA. There isn't any dispute over boundaries and I'm not altering their foundations at all, so I'm looking for someone to confirm that which my engineer has already committed to: that the works won't affect my neighbours. I presume that does not have to be a traditional pw surveyor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Why not offer your neighbour £500 if he agrees to the work without a Party Wall Award? I have to do some works that fall under this and there are 4 neighbouring properties. I am tempted to offer the cash to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 4 hours ago, Mr Punter said: Why not offer your neighbour £500 if he agrees to the work without a Party Wall Award? I have to do some works that fall under this and there are 4 neighbouring properties. I am tempted to offer the cash to them. It's an interesting idea in many circumstances I'm sure but to be honest I've done an awful lot to appease them already. I'd probably rather give the money to the surveyor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Because you chose to build so close to him, I think the onus is on you both legally and morally to do things properly, as I’m sure you are, - namely a proper PWA even if it’s borderline whether you need one but it sounds like technically you do and he would want one. If you omitted to budget for a PWA then just take the hit and save money elsewhere. It’ll be worth it if you keep your house (neighbourly relations) or if you sell it as everything would be in order legally. Offering your neighbour cash compensation to circumvent a law, that’s there to protect you both, is not a particularly good look IMHO. But that’s just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony K Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 @Bozza sorry I meant to reply sooner. Everything you say is plainly right and I have followed your advice. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 If not too late.. http://www.screwpilebasesystems.co.uk/2-uncategorised?start=12 "As the screwpile does not require any earth removed during installation the need of a party wall act can be eliminated, as you are not undermining your neighbour’s foundation." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, Temp said: If not too late.. http://www.screwpilebasesystems.co.uk/2-uncategorised?start=12 "As the screwpile does not require any earth removed during installation the need of a party wall act can be eliminated, as you are not undermining your neighbour’s foundation." You could probably use the same argument to install driven piles as you are not excavating. If it were my neighbour, I would prefer drilled or screw piles to trench excavation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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