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Ashp installers South wales


Leebagga

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Hi, I am new to this forum but have been reading a lot on the forums. Lots of people know there stuff on here. We moved into our house last December which has an ideal airtherm9 ashp with ufh and solar thermal. The pump sounds like a tractor and is rusting to bits. It is set up so we can only run heating and dhw at the same time.Just don't think it's running eficiantly. We are looking to replace the unit but finding it hard to get anyone we feel knows what they are talking about. Was hoping that someonecould recommend any installers.

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Can you be a bit more descriptive and include some pictures?

 

e.g "The pump sounds like a tractor and is rusting to bits"  Are we talking about the actual outdoor part of the ASHP?  or a water circulating pump in the house?

 

A quick look at the manual shows yours is not inverter driven, so when running it will be on at full speed, or off, with nothing in between,

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Hi, thanks for the reply. Yeah it's all or nothing. It's the unit outside. We can't set the hot water and heating separately. If we run heating only from the controller then the heating starts but the pump never comes on. But if we have dhw on constant then the heating on the pump starts. The system is about 11 years old. I'll post some pics shortly. 

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Edited by Leebagga
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I suspect you have 2 issues here:

 

1) It's not the best heat pump (being tactful) not being inverter driven it will be all or nothing and it will be noisy.  It does not appear to be ageing well.  I wonder of you are close to the sea?

 

2) the incorrect heating operation I suspect is a controls issue.  Can you show us some inside pictures, inside the house that is, not inside the heat pump. There will likely be a water pump and a couple of motorised valves somewhere.  I suspect it is a motorised valve that has failed and not giving a "call for heat" when the heating is demanded on it's own.

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Sounds like the old Ideal setup - do you have radiators or just UFH..? The cylinder could actually be a combined unvented cylinder and buffer - especially if you have the Ideal solar thermal too. 

Got any photos or model numbers off the cylinder ..??

 

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We have ufh downstairs and upstairs, then we have 3 small rads in the top room, which never get used. I'll post pics of the cylinder and pipework. We did have a plumber call a while back and he just shook his head when he saw the cylinder set up. We are about 15 miles from the sea. 

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45 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Sounds like the old Ideal setup - do you have radiators or just UFH..? The cylinder could actually be a combined unvented cylinder and buffer - especially if you have the Ideal solar thermal too. 

Got any photos or model numbers off the cylinder ..??

 

Think it is ideal setup. Finding anyone who knows about the pump is a nightmare. The people I have spoken with have never seen the pump before and the one guy who had said only to take one out. We were left with no info on the system when we moved in so Google has been my only friend. We had a electric bill of £470 for 47 days which was a shock. Later found out the immersion was on constant which has subsequently burned out and the cylinder thermostat was on the floor. 

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I am so far only seeing one motorised valve in the last picture, the little silver box hiding behind the Wilo pump.  Do those 2 pipes leading off to the right from it go to the UFH manifold?

 

If so that is the (one of the?) heating motorised valves.

 

Can you follow the cable from that motorised valve to a junction box and do you have any electrical test equipment like a multimeter?

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So I can tell you that internal set up is not 11 years old as those pumps (Wilo not Lowara) haven’t been out for that long. I would say 2 years max. 
 

I can see the pipes from the solar thermal on the roof in the back corner - can you see where they connect to the tank ..? And I can’t see any controller for that ..?

 

Looks like someone has tried to add an additional pump to the system but without being able to see it all laid out, not sure what they have tried to achieve ..! The grey foam insulation is new, the rest is just in the way !!

 

 

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16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am so far only seeing one motorised valve in the last picture, the little silver box hiding behind the Wilo pump.  Do those 2 pipes leading off to the right from it go to the UFH manifold?

 

If so that is the (one of the?) heating motorised valves.

 

Can you follow the cable from that motorised valve to a junction box and do you have any electrical test equipment like a multimeter?

Hi, yes those pipes go into the manifold for the second floor heating. I also have 2 more. One for the attic room and one for downstairs I presume. If I switch heating only on, all the floors call for heat, the pumps come on but the ashp doesn't. I don't have any test equipment. 

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14 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So I can tell you that internal set up is not 11 years old as those pumps (Wilo not Lowara) haven’t been out for that long. I would say 2 years max. 
 

I can see the pipes from the solar thermal on the roof in the back corner - can you see where they connect to the tank ..? And I can’t see any controller for that ..?

 

Looks like someone has tried to add an additional pump to the system but without being able to see it all laid out, not sure what they have tried to achieve ..! The grey foam insulation is new, the rest is just in the way !!

 

 

The grey insulation I added because the old stuff was falling apart. I'll put a pic of where the solar connects to the cylinder. I believe its at the bottom. The 2 pipes are next to each other with the solar thermostat probe just under. The controller for the solar is in a cupboard in the attic room. 

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24 minutes ago, Leebagga said:

Hi, yes those pipes go into the manifold for the second floor heating. I also have 2 more. One for the attic room and one for downstairs I presume. If I switch heating only on, all the floors call for heat, the pumps come on but the ashp doesn't. I don't have any test equipment. 

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Okay can you do some careful observations please:

 

you might need an assistant for this.

 

Turn the heating on, and listen very carefully to see if you can hear all the motorised valves go whir whir whir then click.  Let me know if they all or some can be heard to operate.

 

You say the heating pumps come on, this bit is important, do they come on immediately you turn on the heating or is there a few second delay between turning the heating on and the pumps starting.

 

Usually at each under floor heating manifold there is a control box associated with it.  Can you find any and take a picture particularly of any make and model number and any lights they have on them?

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I have had to pop out but will do this when I get back ill be about 20 min. The heating and hot water controlled by the controller in the cupboard as pictured, but the heating then responds to the thermostats connected remotely. The thermostat sends a signal to a little box which then turns on the heating. I'll send pics when I check. 

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31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Okay can you do some careful observations please:

 

you might need an assistant for this.

 

Turn the heating on, and listen very carefully to see if you can hear all the motorised valves go whir whir whir then click.  Let me know if they all or some can be heard to operate.

 

You say the heating pumps come on, this bit is important, do they come on immediately you turn on the heating or is there a few second delay between turning the heating on and the pumps starting.

 

Usually at each under floor heating manifold there is a control box associated with it.  Can you find any and take a picture particularly of any make and model number and any lights they have on them?

OK so the motorised valves come on and so do the pumps. The only way I can get the ashp to come on though when water is on on the main controller. If I switch water off and put heating on the thermostats and pumps come on but no heat being produced by ashp. 3 lights on the receiver the middle one comes in when heating called just when off as I took photo. The thermostats are milux rf. Last pic is downstairs manifold and pump. 

 

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I think it is time you tried to get a local electrician. And that needs to be al electrician that has a good understanding of heating systems.

 

It's a job to say if the heating is not coming on because something is faulty, or because it has never been wired properly at the start.

 

What is pretty clear is your system is somewhat basic.  You don't have zone control valves or a local control box on your UFH manifolds for instance.  It is normal practice with UFH to have an individual thermostat in each room and a control box next to each UFH manifold to drive a row of actuator valves.

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Yeah I think it is basic. We only have 3 thermostats in the house and nothing driving the actuators. If I need to change the flows I have to turn the red caps. As far as the ashp goes would a newer pump be a lot more efficient? I feel this one is on its last legs. Don't think it has ever been looked after properly. Finding tradesmen who have knowledge of these systems is hard. Thought I would try on here incase of any recommendations. 

Edited by Leebagga
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A newer ASHP with an inverter would certainly be quieter, but not necessarily much more efficient.

 

It really is a heating engineering problem you have, the same would (and quite often does) apply to a gas boiler when one of the controls has gone faulty (or never wired right in the first place.  It's just that some people get bamboozled when you mention "heat pump" and claim they can't understand it.  In reality, the ASHP is a magic box of tricks that will heat up the water when you give it a few commands from a programmer according to how it says in it's manual.  You don't need to understand how it works internally, just read the manual, understand what signals it is expecting and see which one is missing, then investigate to find out why.

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Thank you, I do think at has been wired incorrectly. It seems the ashp doesn't get a signal when being called by the heating only. If I have the water on constant then when heating comes on so does the ashp. I cant have the water timed because if heating comes on the ashp won't heat the water. And the ashp will come on whenever the cylinder drops below the thermostat setting to heat the water. It's been quite a challenge coming into this from a oil combo boiler. ?

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54 minutes ago, ProDave said:

A newer ASHP with an inverter would certainly be quieter, but not necessarily much more efficient.

 

It really is a heating engineering problem you have, the same would (and quite often does) apply to a gas boiler when one of the controls has gone faulty (or never wired right in the first place.  It's just that some people get bamboozled when you mention "heat pump" and claim they can't understand it.  In reality, the ASHP is a magic box of tricks that will heat up the water when you give it a few commands from a programmer according to how it says in it's manual.  You don't need to understand how it works internally, just read the manual, understand what signals it is expecting and see which one is missing, then investigate to find out why.

Am I right in thinking that it wouldn't matter if the ashp heated hot water ifthe heating came on just after? Say dhw timed from 6-8 then the heating comes on at 11,Would the heating just drain all the heat out the cylinder? Feel like I am asking stupid questions. Just clueless. 

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