Best approach for heating and hot water

[Pocster]

Hey people!

 

I am thinking about buying a 1 bed flat for conversion into 2 1 bed flats.

 

Currently it has a reasonably modern combi supplying everything.

 

Should I bother and have the cost of installing another gas main and boiler for one of the flats? or

 

Install in 1 flat (maybe both?) an electric boiler?

 

These flats will be rented so I don't care about the bills :-) but I do care about the conversion costs!

My reason for *potentially* dropping the existing gas combi is then the tenant has no 'gas' issues (tenants and gas don't always mix) also no annual gas safety certificate and my assumption less chance of break down i.e. less moving parts.

 

Can an electric boiler supply enough hot water for say 5 rads and infinite tap hot water on demand? (per flat)

 

Any advice appreciated!

[SteamyTea]

31 minutes ago, pocster said:

These flats will be rented so I don't care about the bills

Convert them both to electric and save on having to get the gas checked and certificated each year.

[Nickfromwales]

Electric central heating may not get a very warm reception from a tennant POV.

To do constant HW you'll either need to store it in a big enough cylinder or go for big instants alongside the electric heating boiler. 

Cant you go all inclusive with the rent and have the gas feeding a communal system? Much easier and you can keep the combi. . Don't forget you'll need to fork out for a new separate supply if going all electric, individually ( self contained ) for both flats  

[Pocster]

Hey!

 

The flats *have* to have independent supplies; planning and all that.

 

Is electric central heating on a wet system no good? (perhaps you thought I meant like electric wall heaters???)

 

No electric combi can do heating and DHW?

[Ferdinand]

33 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Convert them both to electric and save on having to get the gas checked and certificated each year.

 

Remember that you have to have an EPC E by next year, D by 2025 and C by 2030 to rent it out legally. For a new conversion you should be OK.

 

You should care about tenant bills ... if seriously high they will move and it may be expensive to get a new tenant plus all the paperwork. You already have to give an EPC to the tenant - suspect soon that may be regulated more carefully, because the landlord spankers are always after more canes.

 

I am just waiting for an EPC on a house i have just had some work done for a tenant, and I am hopeful of taking the EPC from an E to nearly a C. It will get a C once I have a new boiler but I am waiting until it is necessary.

 

Plus play your cards right by demonistarting a £1000 pa energy saving and you can ask for £500 on the rent.

Ferdinand

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Pocster]

Sure thing. It's already a flat converted in 2008 I think. So a 'C' by 2030 isn't an issue :-)

 

I don't care about tenants bills :-))) ; I run 3 HMO's where I pay the bills and lights/heating/gas etc. all get left on. Im a cynical hard assed landlord! 

 

But seriously; the bill cost implications for a tenant to heat a 30m square flat gas v's electric is going to be fairly minimal over a year.

I appreciate gas is cheaper than electric (at least for now!)

 

So (assuming I went down the electric route for both); wall heaters or electric combi for wet heating i.e. existing rads ???

 

Cheers

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, pocster said:

Hey!

 

The flats *have* to have independent supplies; planning and all that.

 

Is electric central heating on a wet system no good? (perhaps you thought I meant like electric wall heaters???)

 

No electric combi can do heating and DHW?

The electric combis are called Storage boilers. Not great imo, but technology may have moved on

Basically they're thermal stores and produce instant hot water via a neat exchanger. Great until they lose heat and deplete. 

Go for a heating only wet electrical boiler and then one big instant. Your electric supply will need to handle these of course. 

@JSHarris has good things to say about Steibel ( iirc ) so maybe he can add to this. 

[Ferdinand]

@pocster

 

Just to be clear, the limits will also apply to existing properties aiui .

[Pocster]

Of course!.

[Pocster]

I do wonder though...

 

Suppose you have an EPC today that puts you at a D; and thats the highest you can get (you know where it shows potential rating); what would you do in 2030?

 

Do we just *hope* some new super tech/insulation is available by then that allows the 'C' to be met?

 

Cheers

[gravelld]

I guess so, or you have to pay to insulate and air tighten your properties further. That's part of the risk you take on when being a landlord I guess. All investments have risk.

[Pocster]

True. TBH honest meeting EPC is the least of my problems compared to tenants!  

[ProDave]

I am not a fan of electric boilers. I just do not "see the point" If you are going to heat by direct electricity then a panel heater is far far simpler. the only "reason" for an electric boiler is radiators look better than panel heaters and you can call it "central heating" in all other respects individual panel heaters  will do the job just as well.

 

if you really must go direct electric (rather than storage, with it's own set of "issues" I would only consider it on an Economy 10 tariff  If you look at the cheap rate times for E10 you get a few hours in the morning, morning warm up taken care of at cheap rate. A few cheap hours in the early afternoon, the "come home from work" warm up at cheap rate. It then just leaves the early evening at peak rate, when having a really well insulated house would help minimise what you have to use at that time.
 

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, pocster said:

True. TBH honest meeting EPC is the least of my problems compared to tenants!  

 

There are exceptions for properties which cannot be realistically upgraded if payback is (iirc) more than 15 years.

 

I don't know what the regulators will do, but I can see certain councils putting actions in place post-April 2018. I would think it will be an easy hit when there are complaints and they will not have to do a full HHSRS assessment / enforcement. Tell landlord to meet x level, and the checking will be by a third party.

 

Many places can get a C with external insulation, but the prop. I have just upgraded had a quote for 14k to do that :-), which would not be feasible without a big grant.

 

Personally i wouldn't buy anything with rooms in the roof unless they had been upgraded or there was money off the price to do the work. I backed out of one before Christmas that had a nice renovation finish but it was still an E. Far better options are places that have already had EWI or ones that are basically sound but need a top to bottom redo.

 

I expect an overhang of hard to upgrade rentals coming onto the market in 2023-5 and 2028-30. I would say that the slum sector will transfer to none upgradeable owner occupied properties where the owners cannot afford to do things ... assuming that Councils go for landlords who are not compliant. It would be a similar process one stage further to the one by which some Councils sold off many of their poorer rental properties in the 90s and 2000s when these could not be economically improved.

 

At some stage energy bills will become important in the market, and at that point price differentials will come in - just as now it is hard to rent single glazed property (unless it is twee and they are hipsters). At present lack of supply is perhaps a bigger factor.

 

Ferdinand

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ferdinand

[gravelld]

And lack of education. People have no idea how houses "should" be. With education, they may demand more. But whether that education ever occurs is the question; the only thing Kirsty Allsop seems to go on about is fireplaces.

 

Personally I disagree with any payback exemption. If you are investing in housing, you have to take the risks. Maybe a future government may be less likely to look favourably on landlords.

Edited January 18, 2017 by gravelld

[Pocster]

Most new build flats I.e blocks don't seem to bother with gas ; presumably for the same reason I.e installation cost 

[Pocster]

@ProDave I think you are right. No point keeping any traditional radiators.

 

Electric wall panels and perhaps an electric shower (no bath????); then DHW is just a kitchen and bathroom tap.

 

Simpler and cheaper. Not sure of tenants views on no bath though...... (could an electric boiler supply that on demand? ; assuming no other hot taps in use.

[Pocster]

38 minutes ago, gravelld said:

And lack of education. People have no idea how houses "should" be. With education, they may demand more. But whether that education ever occurs is the question; the only thing Kirsty Allsop seems to go on about is fireplaces.

 

Personally I disagree with any payback exemption. If you are investing in housing, you have to take the risks. Maybe a future government may be less likely to look favourably on landlords.

 

LOL!. The government looks very unfavourably on landlords now!. Check out the new tax regime !. Completely destroys some people! - I mean like a 40k tax bill becomes 80K for example. S24, no agent fee's to tenant, no 10% wear and tear allowance, tighter regulation i.e. cost to landlord and tenant, as you say EPC min (which will cause some severe problems), new min room sizes etc. etc. etc.

 

The list goes on!. Some will say it's good. But why can't a tenant choose a smaller and usually cheaper room? for example.

 

Government's objective is to get rid of small landlords; which limits rental stock which pushes rent up! - DOH!

[Ferdinand]

42 minutes ago, pocster said:

@ProDave I think you are right. No point keeping any traditional radiators.

 

Electric wall panels and perhaps an electric shower (no bath????); then DHW is just a kitchen and bathroom tap.

 

Simpler and cheaper. Not sure of tenants views on no bath though...... (could an electric boiler supply that on demand? ; assuming no other hot taps in use.

 

It may be worth a check with your Council on their attitude to electric panel heaters vs eg storage heaters vs gas.

 

There have been cases where EH have enforced on the basis that "efficient heating" and "controllable heating" must be provided.

 

Tenants views on No Bath depend on the market. eg Older people love showers, especially if it is large enough to shower with a friend and have a chair and drying area in the cubicle. But they don't like disabled or elderly adapted showers (grabrails etc) until they actually need the accessories.

 

Quote

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/council-hails-significant-ruling-on-affordable-heating/7010510.article

A north-west council has won a ‘significant’ tribunal which found that a heating system installed by a private landlord breached health and safety rules because it was too expensive for the tenant to use.

Frank Hont, cabinet member for housing at Liverpool City Council, said as a result of the ruling on 17 June, it was now ‘firmly established that landlords cannot rely on inefficient and expensive heating for tenants’. 

Liverpool CIty Council initially issued an enforcement notice on landlord Anwar Hadi Kassim after environmental health officers determined his rental property in Wavertree was a severe threat to health or safety because tenants were unlikely to be able to afford adequate heating.

The notice required Mr Kassim to replace the existing panel convector heaters and a towel rail – which operate on peak electrical tariff – with cheaper gas central heating or fan-assisted storage heating.

 

 

And "fuel poverty" is very much a current issue, even though the campaigners' figures tend to be highly manipulated.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Pocster]

Sure 

 

but as I said what about all the new builds with no gas ??

[Ferdinand]

5 minutes ago, pocster said:

Sure 

 

but as I said what about all the new builds with no gas ??

 

I'd say that they are either occupied by better off tenants, use something like ASHP, or are good enough energy wise to be acceptable.

 

But I do not think that Councils are guaranteed to be competent enough to check that before coming for you :-) .

F

Edited January 18, 2017 by Ferdinand

[gravelld]

2 hours ago, pocster said:

 

LOL!. The government looks very unfavourably on landlords now!. Check out the new tax regime !. Completely destroys some people! - I mean like a 40k tax bill becomes 80K for example. S24, no agent fee's to tenant, no 10% wear and tear allowance, tighter regulation i.e. cost to landlord and tenant, as you say EPC min (which will cause some severe problems), new min room sizes etc. etc. etc.

 

The list goes on!. Some will say it's good. But why can't a tenant choose a smaller and usually cheaper room? for example.

 

Government's objective is to get rid of small landlords; which limits rental stock which pushes rent up! - DOH!

 

I kind of agree, but risk is the reason you should have a diverse portfolio of different types of assets.

 

A lot of people who just invest in property are exposing themselves to a lot of risk.

[Pocster]

I take your point 

but diversity in different assets also means understanding each asset class . Jack of all trades master of none . Can't expect the baker to be a plumber :-))

[Nickfromwales]

14 hours ago, pocster said:

Electric wall panels and perhaps an electric shower (no bath????); then DHW is just a kitchen and bathroom tap.

 

Simpler and cheaper. Not sure of tenants views on no bath though...... (could an electric boiler supply that on demand? ; assuming no other hot taps in use.

Having no bath would alienate anyone with small children so would narrow the marketability of the property imo. 

One big electric ( modulating ) instant would be the same as a small gas combi, e.g. unable to provide DHW to multiple outlets simultaneously,so running multiple hot outlets would not be a concern TBH as you couldn't do so with either fuel type . Anyone with a combi would already be tuned to this discipline i.e. don't do the dishes when someone's in the shower etc. 

A smaller instant + electric shower may be a good solution, as if one fails you still get some hot water. E.g. Shower over bath goes down, but you can still fill the bath ( albeit slowly ). 

Fwiw, I'd never rent a property with all electric unless the EPC was good and I could SEE previous annual running costs from actual bills. Estimating how 'well' the new system will work will be difficult.

The mention of fan-assisted panel heaters shows where the trend may be heading, so do a bit of research on how they perform vs wet heating radiators ( howsoever heated ) before going any further. 

[PeterW]

So could you not keep the boiler and run it as a mini district heating system from one flat with it boxed away ..?? 

 

You would need need to reroute the pipework for one of the flats but there are plenty of heat meters about that mean you could meter the supply accordingly.