My (rotten) ASHP. Update.

[ProDave]

https://www.barbourproductsearch.info/vaillant-arotherm-split-1-0-lr-1454128-file081541.pdf

 

Page 3 tells me how silent it is (sic)

 

It shows the outside unit contains the fan and the refrigerant compressor.  I would expect this bit to be the noisy bit, probably just as noisy as a monoblock unit.

 

The inside bit is just a heat exchanger, expansion vessel and WATER circulating pump.

 

2 things spring to mind.  Get them to power up just the water circulating pump in the inside unit (may have to temporarily wire it to a bit of flex and a plug) to see how much noise actually comes from that.  I suspect not a lot, but it is a test that needs doing.

 

As the pipes between the inside and outside units contain refrigereant gas, have they actually been piped with any flexible sections?  is that indeed even possible?  If not a least a full turn pig tail on each pipe to try and isolate noise from outside to inside.

 

You could also temporarily disconnect the internal water pump and try running it. It probably won't run long before throwing an error but it might run long enough to see if disabling the internal water pump reduces the noise or not.

[zoothorn]

I have to say despite the issues, the vaillant people who've been on phone at tech dept, plus both engineers, couldn't have been more helpful: it is not their fault its been built somewhere else (De) & marketed there too by all accounts: the manual's clearly translated into english so sentences often don't make sense, adding confusion to a ridiculously complicated manual both engineers told me Id never get any sense out of/ not fit for purpose.

 

Trouble is Ive also racked up 7hrs worth of calls, & over 5 hrs of 3 visits. Nearly 2 days' worth of my working days spent.. & Im back at sq1, actually worse with no properly HW. I'm yearning for my old mouse-ridden 25yr old gently-tinkling-sounding immersion tank with no rads at all! where is it? let me fish it out the ystwyth already!

[Nickfromwales]

 

6 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I have to say despite the issues, the vaillant people who've been on phone at tech dept, plus both engineers, couldn't have been more helpful:

So the resolve is what from them?

[zoothorn]

13 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

So the resolve is what from them?

 

Well, for a start a token gesture tmrw of replacing the pump. But assuming the same model, me & snr engineer agreed it likely would make no difference. They agreed to do it though, bc they (both, 2 visits) concurred it is making a whining noise ontop of its motor noise, & "yes I see your point, its maybe worth changing to see, & we address the compressor issue after". I can't fault the service.

 

But I'm already talking to my lovely installers (Im lucky all the folks have been nice, understand my pov entirely) about exploring avenue of re-siting the wretched boiler (pic1) outside: I tentatively put this as the only possible I could envisage (anyone) living with it making the noise it does. But this means cylinder has to be close by = a huge headache in terms of space/ re configging a UT room totally to fit this in (& likely not having room for a WM & UT basin as a result) logistics of the work, & the building of an outside 'tagged-on' enclosure to house the damn boiler. Nightmare.

[gaschick]

So, would you avoid getting a Valiant ASHP? I am exploring these as alternatives to the standard Mitsubishi Ecodan as Mitsubishi have run out of product. One installer is in talks with Vaillant at the moment as he has a client who is interested in Vaillant due to the high temp outputs.

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, gaschick said:

I am exploring these as alternatives to the standard Mitsubishi Ecodan as Mitsubishi have run out of product.

I take it that an installer has told you this as he’s got a “special deal on the Hong Weng Chinese Heat Pump Company” it’s-a-rebadged-Mitsubishi-trust-me-love Heat Pump he thinks you should use ..??

 

Mitsubishi are definitely not unavailable and are in stock in the U.K. with plenty of suppliers !!

[Nick1c]

Mitsubishi are having supply problems on at least some models. Our 7 year old 8.5kW ecodan broke down at the start of August, they appear to have a design which allows a cascade of failures - ours needed at least 2 new circuit boards & a fan. We decided not to risk throwing good money after bad & order a replacement unit - we are still waiting & they are unable to even give a delivery date..... This is for a model one generation back, no idea what current model availability is like. 

[PeterW]

Not surprised for a 7 year old unit as that was all the pre-EUP regs so repairing that would be false economy. I know a few suppliers - City Plumbing for example - that have 8 and 11Kw on the shelf for delivery in 24 hours. Is this being done under a warranty agreement or with a local supplier ..? 

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

I take it that an installer has told you this as he’s got a “special deal on the Hong Weng Chinese Heat Pump Company” it’s-a-rebadged-Mitsubishi-trust-me-love Heat Pump he thinks you should use ..??

 

Mitsubishi are definitely not unavailable and are in stock in the U.K. with plenty of suppliers !!

 

Haha. No, a Vaillant engineer replacing it tmrw. I'm hoping he'll bring a Wilo or whatever the goodun I read on here was, but I'm certain a like for like, & that it won't make a blind bit of difference.

 

Only immediate concern is he's coming from York. To Wales. Erm.. how's that happenin then/ current situation etc?!

 

I mean from York > west coast wales, to change a pump, that'll be exactly the same. Bonkers. But credit to them at the least for this.

 

 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW you seem to know alot about these. Would you know how (basically speaking) how I can best to use it max econo: I was thinking can I turn say 1/2 of my rads off at least, would it still be happy do you know?

 

Just me here.. I'm now concerned about electric costs if I hear the flippin thing(s) working away so much. And 8x rads 2 very sizeable too.

[PeterW]

As long as there is enough warm getting to the thermostat so that it turns off at some point then dropping rads off shouldn’t be an issue. 
 

Best thing to do is to take daily electricity meter reads for a week as that will show you your usage. 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

As long as there is enough warm getting to the thermostat so that it turns off at some point then dropping rads off shouldn’t be an issue. 
 

Best thing to do is to take daily electricity meter reads for a week as that will show you your usage. 

 

Its very very infrequently during my 2 hrs AM, & 3 hrs PM I manually dial the desired temp from 18* (daytime I like it at/ & its mostly idle thanfully) up to 21* to get the rads on properly, that the heat compressor + pump in the inside boiler aren't both on hammer & tongs.

 

Thermostat is in the mini controller, sited in the spare room (which is the warmest in the house too). I think this is relevant.

 

thx zH

[joth]

8 hours ago, Nick1c said:

Mitsubishi are having supply problems on at least some models. Our 7 year old 8.5kW ecodan broke down at the start of August, they appear to have a design which allows a cascade of failures - ours needed at least 2 new circuit boards & a fan. We decided not to risk throwing good money after bad & order a replacement unit - we are still waiting & they are unable to even give a delivery date..... This is for a model one generation back, no idea what current model availability is like. 

 

 

AIUI They're starting to ship the new R32 Ecodan heat pump this month so possible that distributors have been running down their stocks of the previous model too.

 

[zoothorn]

@ProDave the pdf you put up is exactly the basis for my ire. I went through this -the most detailed info available to a customer (dense enough to think it's all if not more than enough info to have to hand to make a decision Y or N to choosing it) thoughrally before agreeing installation. I even did a thread on here, as backup, in case of missing anything obvious. I couldn't have prepped better (as a regular customer that is, not as a technically-proficient customer say as you or PeterW might well be: I couldn't be expected to).

 

Sound figs, diagram, and all the inviting "quiet" words are -soley- ascociated with the outside unit. If I can hear this prominently 20m away, in middle of road outside, & on the other side of the house too.. this alone doesn't tally & something's amiss (with their info that is, not the unit; its working as it should I'm told "they all do that": again nothing relative to an agreeable purring fan noise, but just the noisy compressor tagged on the side of this unit). Nothing on there whatsoever re. noise ascociated with the inside unit (boiler's pump, the 1 & only noise creator within the house) , nor, the noise being transmitted into the house from the outside unit (compressor, the 1 & only noise creator outside the house) via the 2x flexi HP pipes.

 

Engineer here this AM, but another poor night sleep tossing & turning expecting the pump in adjacent room might go on/off/on like a milk float at 4am incessantly for an hour. Affecting my day to day living this is- its just incompatible to have in the house at all afaict.

[ToughButterCup]

On 17/10/2020 at 11:37, zoothorn said:

... German too.

Vee ken not get everysink Korrect.

[Nick1c]

@PeterW we had hoped to get a pre R32 model as we would only then need the outside unit. I believe that the current model needs a new control box inside & another hole through our (2foot thick granite) outside wall to allow a vent for the propane. We are looking at different manufacturers as I don’t believe that a design which allows a cascade of failures is a good one.

@joth they had been running down old stock & got their fingers burnt with the lockdown, but nevertheless that was in March, it seems to me to be verging on the incompetent when the order was placed early August & they still can’t give an indication of when they can supply. 

[zoothorn]

On 17/10/2020 at 15:35, ProDave said:

https://www.barbourproductsearch.info/vaillant-arotherm-split-1-0-lr-1454128-file081541.pdf

 

Page 3 tells me how silent it is (sic)

 

It shows the outside unit contains the fan and the refrigerant compressor.  I would expect this bit to be the noisy bit, probably just as noisy as a monoblock unit.

 

The inside bit is just a heat exchanger, expansion vessel and WATER circulating pump.

 

2 things spring to mind.  Get them to power up just the water circulating pump in the inside unit (may have to temporarily wire it to a bit of flex and a plug) to see how much noise actually comes from that.  I suspect not a lot, but it is a test that needs doing.

 

As the pipes between the inside and outside units contain refrigereant gas, have they actually been piped with any flexible sections?  is that indeed even possible?  If not a least a full turn pig tail on each pipe to try and isolate noise from outside to inside.

 

You could also temporarily disconnect the internal water pump and try running it. It probably won't run long before throwing an error but it might run long enough to see if disabling the internal water pump reduces the noise or not.

 

Very good & useful info ProDave- appreciated. I took my laptop up & read/ condensed your points & put them to him.. he was impressed & also a bit put out but hey, said he was doing some of that now (I think the pump business inside). He checked your pipe suggestion, said coil been put in as should be. So he decided to change the pump, like for like tho (mfr france), and on leaving said he thinks its 'significantly quieter'. But then added 'but I do have severe tinnitus' so doesn't know ?!! I said well now I can complain further, that they sent the very chap I didn't want (thkfully he laughed).

 

I think (tho I'm on tenterhooks waiting) maybe I can detect a huge difference tho: at the mo its in one of its two 'one-hour' HW chunks (whatever it does; make it, charge it, top it up I've no idea). 12-1pm.. 5-6pm. These set by one of the engineers, to suit my minimal HW useage. And I can only hear the compressor noise! which could be a major result = 1/2 my noise prob solved.

 

If so, I can now (tentatively- I dare not even look at it right now) start to consider sound 'containing' the 3m or so area the compressor noise is heard: by pB'ing the spare room cupboard the boiler is in. But, there's a huge gap behind the pB, where the boiler is hanging from, & inner brick course (& some stone), 5" void all around upstairs floor, which is definitely part of the problem.. IE the pipe reverberation is excacerbated & travels all round whole area > hence heard at all parts of house. A nr impossible soundproof here, unless some stuff pumped in to fill the void: but it's like 3cubicM of area needed to fill. I can at least do the 'front' myself with my 4x excess soundbloc 12.5mm pB sheets.

 

Quite a trial. If only the damn compressor could be changed & same results tho. Chap said 'cant do anything about that' as he left of course.

[Onoff]

You could consider some secondhand acoustic tiles to line the cupboard. Something like this:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Acoustic-Panels-soundproofing-tiles-30x30-cms/114469750240?hash=item1aa6edc5e0%3Ag%3AcBkAAOSw~gxfjCBC&LH_ItemCondition=3000

[joth]

4 hours ago, Nick1c said:

@PeterW we had hoped to get a pre R32 model as we would only then need the outside unit. I believe that the current model needs a new control box inside & another hole through our (2foot thick granite) outside wall to allow a vent for the propane. We are looking at different manufacturers as I don’t believe that a design which allows a cascade of failures is a good one.

@joth they had been running down old stock & got their fingers burnt with the lockdown, but nevertheless that was in March, it seems to me to be verging on the incompetent when the order was placed early August & they still can’t give an indication of when they can supply. 

We maybe talking at cross purposes here, as R32 is not propane (that's R290), and so AFAIK does not need any vent hole, but then I only know about (and my previous comment was about) the monoblock models, which wouldn't need any vent hole anyway. Anyway this is going OT so I'll step back there!

  

[zoothorn]

On 19/10/2020 at 17:55, Onoff said:

You could consider some secondhand acoustic tiles to line the cupboard. Something like this:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Acoustic-Panels-soundproofing-tiles-30x30-cms/114469750240?hash=item1aa6edc5e0%3Ag%3AcBkAAOSw~gxfjCBC&LH_ItemCondition=3000

 

Great idea & not dear too. Where were you thinking these go.. on the 'front' side of cupboard?

 

Its the way the room's made is some of the problem, the 5" void behind the pB the boiler's fixed to, & inner brick course: getting access to shove any soundproofy xyz in is not possible. The copper pipes coming out below boiler, actually go behind, thru pB & into the void gap (to be neatly away etc), then coming back into the room 1m on > into the cylinder.. so noise is being fed directly into the void, & then fed directly into the room.

 

Also the LHS of cupboard houses the pressure 2x white flexi pipes which enter from outside wall. This cupboard is just above your head in the stairwell, itself in the corner of main downstairs room: so you're never far from this noise source (these pipes' original emitting source, being the compressor outside).

Edited October 20, 2020 by zoothorn

[Onoff]

9 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Great idea & not dear too. Where were you thinking these go.. on the 'front' side of cupboard?

 

I was thinking on hard surfaces inside the cupboard that sound could be reflecting off of and reverberating against. As I understand it the little foam pyramids absorb/break up the sound. 

 

I used some second hand acoustic tiles to line inside my wall hung WC enclosure. Did it on a whim after years of living with other regular, noisy cisterns in the house. All I can say is it fills near silent.

 

 

[zoothorn]

@Onoff yes its defo a good suggestion- these '3 sides of the box' of the cupboard can be attacked with stuff like this, maybe either/ or soundbloc pB lined (I have 4 sheets spare). Its the backside 'void' where half at lest of sound is happening. You can see the void in pic1 (pg1) where pipes dive behind into the pB.

 

Anyway living with it now the pump has been changed, assuming now its as it should have been all along, is better.. but most of house noise remains.

 

One thing about this ASHP I can only see as a big design flaw (apart from noise) is this. In order it works as it likes to & designed to, the setback temp needs to be ~18* or so. This is fine during the day, good even, making (most of the time) an even mild-warm house.. like having an aga in a corner of house, & In this way, the system's primed to heat rads up to speed in ~1hr~ (I assume a default CH designer's aimed figure to get rads up to speed) when I come in at 6pm & dial up rotary knob to 21*. But it has to continue the same overnight.

 

IE in order to get rads up to speed by say 7.30am, you have 2 choices. One is the way its designed, the other not so. The way it likes & designed, is like the day setback temp @ 18*, it needs also to be set to overnight. This means rads on overnight, mild-warm-beds/ in fact the whole house rads on (wasteful) dipping on & off. How this can be deemed 'eco-friendly' is beyond me. I also do not like a rad on at night (I certainly don't like the compressor waking me up) but I'm forced to IF if want my rads up to speed in ~1hr~ by 7.30 am.

 

The other way, it doesn't like, is to put in a setback temp low enough overnight it doesnt engage the rads. 10* in my case (chiefly due to its noise overnight). But rads only get up to speed in ~2hrs~ because its "cold". So I have to choose: no warm house until 9.30am  & sleep with no noise interruption -plus- wasteful night rads on, by setting overnight temp to 10* starting rads 7.30am to coincide with alarm call. Or start rads 5.30am in this setting > get rads up to speed in ~2hrs~ for 7.30am. So I have to get up at 5.30 due to noise. To a cold house.

 

So you can see its designed to be kept on overnight ((there is no "3rd" setting you can put in an 'overnight' setback temp different to the daytime one)) to have a timed morning rads-ON period from a normal say 6.30am > 7.30 rads up to speed. It doesn't like having the rads not ready constantly 24/7 by being set down to a low setting overnight/ it doesn't work properly like this.

Edited October 23, 2020 by zoothorn

[ProDave]

The issue of controlling it comes down to a fundamental question.  Was an ASHP the right choice of heating for an old stone cottage heated with radiators?

 

We all know ASHP's have a limited maximum water temperature.  So at the best of times, for use with radiators you need over sized radiators.  They work best with low temperature under floor heating and even better in a very well insulated house.

 

You can't change the laws of physics.  If your house cools down so much over night that it takes many hours to warm up again with the ASHP there is not much you can do.  If you had a gas or oil boiler, the radiators would get a lot hotter, and the house would heat up much quicker.

 

So the awkward question becomes:  Did you ask for an ASHP heating system with radiators?  Or did someone else tell you that was a good idea for an old stone cottage?

 

 

[zoothorn]

47 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The issue of controlling it comes down to a fundamental question.  Was an ASHP the right choice of heating for an old stone cottage heated with radiators?

 

We all know ASHP's have a limited maximum water temperature.  So at the best of times, for use with radiators you need over sized radiators.  They work best with low temperature under floor heating and even better in a very well insulated house.

 

You can't change the laws of physics.  If your house cools down so much over night that it takes many hours to warm up again with the ASHP there is not much you can do.  If you had a gas or oil boiler, the radiators would get a lot hotter, and the house would heat up much quicker.

 

So the awkward question becomes:  Did you ask for an ASHP heating system with radiators?  Or did someone else tell you that was a good idea for an old stone cottage?

 

 

 

It was the only choice ProDave. Its either I agree to this system, or stick with a rotting old immersion tank on its last legs, as inefficient as likely it was, with mice galore. I didn't know about its limiting factors with regard to a house not ideal to the system (if this is the case- I get your point it could be), nor was I informed about any limiting factors. I was just told it would be great/ the survey chap said. There's no way I could have grappled with any explanation of this night-mode, at this juncture, anyway: but it definitely wasn't explained. I did consider the only limiting factor, here, being my downstairs 80's addition being so cold I doubted even a flat-out-hot rad would make it warm: my bathroom & kitchen remain cold but I knew this/ I anticipated this. I use my trusted £5 charity shop fan heater taking it between these two rooms.

 

Whether or not its not ideally insulated, it still would have to be on all night/ rads dipping in/ out, the thing firing up, the rads on. Maybe not as regularly as mine might do, but still in this 'standby+ ' mode. Two-thirds of the house isn't an old stone cottage anyway, 1/3rd a new extention, 1/3rd an 80's extention, only 1/3rd (just one big room) is old stone cottage.

 

When the system fires up too, is entirely dependent on where the thermostat is placed, not the nature of the original section of the house: so if it was in the new extention.. it would sense least times to go on. Which as I type is an idea to relocate it.. but inconvenient as its on the controller (a separate 6x3" box on wall) its dial I need to access 6x a day.

 

Actually it can get the rads & HW up to a decent temp, maybe not super-hot, but hot. I don't like super-hot anyway like a trv binary type of situation 'ouch hot' then 'stone cold' on/off.

Edited October 23, 2020 by zoothorn

[SteamyTea]

I have kept out of this for various reasons, but it seems to me that the ASHP fitted is undersized.

Where and what loss calculations done by the installer. These used to be part of the MCS protocol.