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You can’t build here. There are no shops nearby.


Jaqueslecont

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I’m in conversation with a local farmer about purchasing a barn, with a view to converting or demolishing or re building. Before I get any further down the line I’m going to consult with the local planning office.

 

Doing some research I can see that they have recently refused permission for a build nearby on the basis that it doesn’t fit with the local sustainability plan because there are no shops nearby, and any resident would have to use a car to buy groceries.

 

Has anyone come across this type of thing before? It seems nuts. Is there any mitigation I can make? Perhaps I should offer to build a OneStop?

Edited by Jaqueslecont
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If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again.  We have no footpath, no street lights, 3 miles to the nearest shop and no public transport.  It's bloody brilliant.

 

If push came to shove I could cycle to the shops (but it's uphill on the way back)  I would prefer to walk, along the riverbank.

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If it is a barn then use the Class Q conversion. You won’t be able to change the exterior shape or material, but you can do a lot with it.
 

Planners don’t like Class Q as it’s really difficult to object to if it’s an old and disused building ..! 

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1 hour ago, Jaqueslecont said:

Doing some research I can see that they have recently refused permission for a build nearby on the basis that it doesn’t fit with the local sustainability plan because there are no shops nearby, and any resident would have to use a car to buy groceries.

 

I wonder if anyone has successfully argued that you can get groceries delivered now ?

 

In my area they also look at access to schools and doctors though.

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12 hours ago, Temp said:

In my area they also look at access to schools and doctors though.

And in the not too distance future, your home PV will charge your self driving EV.

13 hours ago, ProDave said:

If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again

There are probably other, bigger, reasons it is deserted.

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14 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said:

...

Has anyone come across this type of thing before?

...

Yes.

We were given permission,  the applicant next  door (20 meters away), was refused (at Appeal). The difference and reason given? Sustainability. 

 

Cutting a long story short, locally at least, the interpretation of the term sustainability seems to have changed recently. Notwithstanding arguments presented elsewhere by @the_r_sole, (search on this  site for the term Consistency by @the_r_sole), there was qualitatively next to no difference between our application and that of our neighbours. The only real difference was temporal. 

 

I feel for you. 

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14 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said:

I’d love to go class Q, but it has no floor or walls which I think takes it out of class Q permission?

 

I have seen some examples where there the building is like an open shelter and they have allowed the conversion.  Can you post a picture?

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@Jaqueslecont Yes no walls is usually a problem for class Q, following the Hibbitt high court decision. Best bet is to ask a local planning consultant and NOT the local planning office. The local planning office will almost certainly say no to anything you suggest and may then use your discussion with them against you in future.

 

You may find the council has online guidance on class Q, and past decision notices will also give a guide. Martin Goodall's planning law blog is good though can be hard going.

 

Refusal based on car usage is classic. Because of course no-one within settlement boundaries ever uses their car...

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Aside

 

I think this kind of determination will be something in play in future planning policy. perhaps we are headed back to an 8nhabited countryside on a  timescale. But that does not help you.

 

Cars will become zero emission, so arguing against their use will be difficult.

 

I note that green arguments wrt cars shifted from ‘emissions’ to ‘congestion’ years ago.

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I had the same issue on mine. Flat refusal for a "new build" because of sustainability. 

 

They did however let me convert it into a holiday let as that was still commercial so didnt need change of use. Which means that i did the work under permitted development. 

I had to keep 50% of the existing walls but no one seemed to care when 25% of that got blown over. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, joe90 said:

What about farmers/farm hands etc that work in the countryside (and have no wish to live in a city).

Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it.  Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors.

I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers.

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17 hours ago, ProDave said:

If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again.  We have no footpath, no street lights, 3 miles to the nearest shop and no public transport.  It's bloody brilliant.

Same here..... 2.5 miles to the nearest paved road - 3 miles to the nearest street light and 3.5 miles to the nearest shop...... great stuff. 

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18 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said:

It’s two miles from a large town which makes it rather frustrating.

Tell them you will have an electric car and charge point!

 

This is madness, look at all the future ghettos that are being built on scraps of poor land miles from anything by the big builders - not even a school that close but hey, build 500 new homes and put a bus stop outside it and it will be grand!

Edited by Carrerahill
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19 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Yes, as well as a KFC and Costa if that's what they want in place before houses can be built

Got both of them near me, and a Domino, MacD, Subway, Tesco, Sainsbury, Morrison, Halfords, B&M, Poundland, any many  more.

And this view.

 

St Michaels.jpg

 

And every summer, a few million new people to meet.

Edited by SteamyTea
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I have been following class q applications in East Suffolk for a long time now to get experience before we applied.  
In my experience they will give permission for old pretty barns 'heritage assets' whether they have 4 walls or not.

If you have a perfectly structurally sound modern barn then in 9 cases out of 10 they seem to find a reason to refuse.

The most common reason seems to be where it is and the sustainability issue.

We did get planning for ours in the end, but it took years, 4 applications, contamination surveys, ecology surveys, structural surveys, archaeology surveys, it got to the stage where we had spent so much money that we just had to keep going.

In the end I think they got bored of me applying again and again and asking lots of questions in between.

Our barn is modern, built in the 60's, does have 3.25 out of 4 walls, is sound and is 100m from our house, so many of their objections were unfounded because it is classed as near other dwellings.

It is ugly, certainly not an asset, that was noted in the approval, that it would look much better converted.

 

But, going back to your original point, I don't think a dutch barn, 4 poles and a roof of modern construction has much chance.

 

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4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it.  Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors.

I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers.

 

That will be interesting as there's quite a movement in favour of artisan, inefficient, extensive, expensive farming. I still don't know  how they will square all these extra woodlands and nature reserves, less efficient farming and improving food security by reducing imports.

 

It's not very long since I heard a baker on Farming Today explaining that the £4 loaves they sell were far healthier and they did some at cheap prices for poor people,  but needed lots of subsidy so everyone could have some.

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This is the place. Spoke to a planning consultant today who is giving me some advice on a pre application meeting/ correspondence. I think part Q is a non starter so it’ll probably be all in. I need to push the sustainability pitch in other ways. Environmental credentials? Working with the local college students as a sustainability project? Open a small holding?

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9 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it.  Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors.

I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers.


well we are passed by tractors being driven by people all day, they need to live somewhere (local!).

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7 minutes ago, joe90 said:

well we are passed by tractors being driven by people all day, they need to live somewhere (local!)

We live in a place of higher than average agriculture, but nationally, the employment is very low (like fishing, not many fishermen in Buckinghamshire).

I am all for building more housing in the countryside, a lot more housing, and especially keen on converting old buildings.

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