Extension- Last Stuff.

[joe90]

Very cold here this morning , switched  heating on by upping the room stat, flow temp creeping up, got to 42’ then went into defrost mode. House is still 21’ and outside Rh 86%.so not supprised. Now holding at 42’ (which is fine fir the buffer tank fir the UFH).

[zoothorn]

BTU calcs for new extention 2 rooms:

 

Top bedroom = 3078. Rad size: 1800 x 700mm. Double "22" type.

Workshop below = 4121. Rad size: 1200 x 600mm. Double "22 type".

 

Trouble with this calculator, is no option of "timber frame" or even "block" (for the "what is the outside wall?" Q).

 

If I put in 'insulated brick cavity", I get 4121. If I put in '105mm brick', I get 7856. So, above I've gone for the only one with 'insulated' included.

 

thanks zH.

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

Okay @zoothorn  Now you have the thermometers to put on the pipes, just get the Vailant man to visit and demonstrate to him that the radiators can barely get to 40 degrees, tell him that is not hot enough to heat the house, and you need it made so that the radiators can get to at least 50 degrees, preferable 55.

 

Tell him that is the problem you need fixing.

 

Hi ProDave, yes I hinted this in 3 emails last 2 weeks, pls to call me in each (polite emails back but no call): but now with more certainty (after many readings a similar 35*C ) I can hammer this point home. This is exhausting too tho, v. time consuming. But no work so do have time.

 

But I now sense stall from them too innevitably annoyed at so many times Ive had to call, so getting them out for visit no.9 is going to be blood from a stone I know it. Plus always threat of "£90 call out charge if they find nothing wrong" so if they were to say "no its fine, it can only do 35*C bc of your settings" or something... I get a bill to rub my nose in it. urgh.

 

12.9*C in my new top bedroom at 7.45am today (& only 14.1*C at 9am)!! I've been giving them these figures too over last 2 cold weeks.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Very cold here this morning , switched  heating on by upping the room stat, flow temp creeping up, got to 42’ then went into defrost mode. House is still 21’ and outside Rh 86%.so not supprised. Now holding at 42’ (which is fine fir the buffer tank fir the UFH).

 

Hi joe- what time did you switch heating on ? (or assume you have a heating on time ~6.30am or something normal maybe?).

 

What is your flow temp settting you have chosen tho? Its this setting (within your digital controller), relative to what you are actually reading/ measuring/ at the pipe itself/ it'd be useful to know if poss. Thx.

 

21*C in the morning?! jeesush. I can only get this after mine's run for 10 hrs, & only then in my small thermostat spare room with cylinder in!

[joe90]

My heating is on 24/7 and controlled only by a room stat, I have a buffer tank permanently topped up by the ASHP with a stat set at 35’. I forced my heating on by upping this stat to give you a flow reading which as I said got to 42’. My system is different from yours (and I cannot make head nor tail of the controller, I even re read it this morning and got confused!!!). That 42’ was measured by a probe on the incoming pipe from the ASHP.

 

My house is a new build with “passive” type insulation and airtightness so will be a world away from your stone cottage.

 

I notice @ProDave gave you a flow temp above, if you cannot get near your set temp on your incoming hot pipe your ASHP is either not coping (too small) or set up wrongly. Either way you need to give Vaillant this info and get their response.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

I notice @ProDave gave you a flow temp above, if you cannot get near your set temp on your incoming hot pipe your ASHP is either not coping (too small) or set up wrongly. Either way you need to give Vaillant this info and get their response.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck gramophone record, if we had the result of the "only 1 radiator on" test we would know which of those it was.

[Onoff]

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

BTU calcs for new extention 2 rooms:

 

Top bedroom = 3078. Rad size: 1800 x 700mm. Double "22" type.

Workshop below = 4121. Rad size: 1200 x 600mm. Double "22 type".

 

I assume your bold figures are your calculated ones?

 

The 1800 x 700 double is rated at nom. 12000 BTU, the 1200x600 double at 7000 BTU. Rads should be killing it and making the rooms toasty IF they're getting to temp and your losses aren't too high.

 

(FO ref the door, you're on your own).

[dpmiller]

I wonder...

if the thermostat controller thingy is in the small room with the cylinder etc in,  could the systems fuzzy logic be incorrectly presuming the heatup time/ energy input for the rest of the house?

As in, using the weather compensation etc it's dialling back the flow temperature because of the rate-of-rise in the room with the 'stat in...

[Onoff]

Just now, dpmiller said:

I wonder...

if the thermostat controller thingy is in the small room with the cylinder etc in,  could the systems fuzzy logic be incorrectly presuming the heatup time/ energy input for the rest of the house?

As in, using the weather compensation etc it's dialling back the flow temperature because of the rate-of-rise in the room with the 'stat in...

 

If a portable stat, stick it in the coldest room?

[dpmiller]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

If a portable stat, stick it in the coldest room?

but it's not AFAIK, I think we discussed it's siting months back on another thread?

[Onoff]

Assume there's a pump on the system? Is it working? Not just heating the "first" rooms by convection through the pipework?

[Onoff]

Just now, dpmiller said:

but it's not AFAIK, I think we discussed it's siting months back on another thread?

 

As someome else is fond of saying, I can't remember that or be arsed looking back. If someone could do that for me please....

[dpmiller]

Can't be bothered, so maybe @zoothorn can confirm for us?

 

And maybe take some nice piccies of how all the kit is sited in the room???

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I assume your bold figures are your calculated ones?

 

The 1800 x 700 double is rated at nom. 12000 BTU, the 1200x600 double at 7000 BTU. Rads should be killing it and making the rooms toasty IF they're getting to temp and your losses aren't too high.

 

(FO ref the door, you're on your own).

 

Hi Onoff. Alas I cannot make head nor tail of half of this.

 

'rated as nom'.. '12000 BTU'.. 'FO ref' (shorthand/ abbreviations.. wasn't it you hollerin at me-?!) Ive no idea. I know only nom means nominal yes, but even so I can't comprehend 'the .. rad is rated as nominal' or the 12000 figure. I do understand sentiment of 3rd sentence I think. And FO I think means f**k off. thx.

 

 

[ProDave]

7 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Assume there's a pump on the system? Is it working? Not just heating the "first" rooms by convection through the pipework?

but the installer or Vailant engineers should have checked all that.

 

So various engineers have visited multiple times and none has got it so it will heat the house properly.  I think it is time for a different tack.

 

This was installed by a grant scheme who then sent an installer to fit a system.

 

It does not work as expected and it appears the installers have washed their hands of it, after all, they have been paid.

 

I think what is needed now is forget the installers or the manufacturers, go higher up the chain.  Go the the company / organisation that you first dealt with.  They are the people your "contract" is with.

 

Tell them that the system that they organised to be installed is not fit for purpose, and you need it sorted out so it works.  Point out that the installers or designers of the system appear not to have done the job properly because after multiple visits they have failed to make the system work properly.  Point out that it is your opinion the grant money they provided has been miss spent paying an incompetent installer to install an inadequate system and then fail to make it work.

[zoothorn]

14 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I wonder...

if the thermostat controller thingy is in the small room with the cylinder etc in,  could the systems fuzzy logic be incorrectly presuming the heatup time/ energy input for the rest of the house?

As in, using the weather compensation etc it's dialling back the flow temperature because of the rate-of-rise in the room with the 'stat in...

 

Hi dpm. Sounds like some good reasoning, I can understand the basics of what you're saying, I think. If this is true & the site chosen for the thermostat is your point & totally incorrect, then I'd agree this would be installer error -not- Vaillant's, like the leak. And I'm stuffed to have it repositioned then/ no point asking, altho to move it is feasable I could do if I had the correct lead.

 

thx.

[Cpd]

54 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

12.9*C in my new top bedroom at 7.45am today (& only 14.1*C at 9am)

Living the dream mate I only set my heater to 13c and feel happy this morning as the temp is  14.4c  (no need for a reply....  it just gets my goat that you whine  about being cold all the time) 

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Hi Onoff. Alas I cannot make head nor tail of half of this.

 

'rated as nom'.. '12000 BTU'.. 'FO ref' (shorthand/ abbreviations.. wasn't it you hollerin at me-?!) Ive no idea. I know only nom means nominal yes, but even so I can't comprehend 'the .. rad is rated as nominal' or the 12000 figure. I do understand sentiment of 3rd sentence I think. And FO I think means f**k off. thx.

 

 

Nom. is understood far and wide as accepted shorthand for nominal. "Loooong" is boll@cks in any language. If you want to write "bc" for because then do it on your phone and don't be lazy.

 

Whatever size of radiator has a BTU rating as in the nominal 12000BTU or 7000BTU I quoted for the two you sized up. I said nominal as different makes will vary slightly. That's the maximum amount of "heat" in simple terms it'll give out to the room if fed with hot water at a certain temperature.

 

You calculated you need 4121BTU for your workshop. For the moment just assume that you're dead on with your calculations. You have a 12000BTU radiator in there. It could be working so well that it heats the room up super quick because it's three times the size it needs to be. Or it could be working at 1/3 of it's efficiency but that's all the well insulated room needs so it seems fine.

 

10/10 btw on FO.

[zoothorn]

@ProDave all good ideas: but believe me I've tried & tried all way up the chain, multiple times, months. Nothing worked, stall/ no call backs. Its was only when I got onto Vaillant & -demanded- they send info to high enough up the chain (who fwd'd it down) of the incorrect 'group head.. expansion tank' innitial incorrect attatching info/ reason for the leak, that they lazily finally relented & sent out an engineer. Who hasn't fixed it.

 

I get distinct impression similarly at each step in the chain:

 

A) its a grant, you got it foc, lump its foibles/ be grateful etc... &

B) we're welsh, we fit this for you english, lump its foibles etc.

 

Its deliberate. And I admit I'm defeated by it (anyone would be). So Vaillant are my only avenue: I must not go hammer & tongs at them, but super careful & patient, hence the protracted time involved in anything changing & me asking so much on here.

 

thx zH.

[markc]

If they ever have an Oscar for forum threads, this one will get it

[zoothorn]

@Cpd well you might be living in a dog kennel I dont know. Sorry but I'm cold at 8am simple as.

 

0.4*C increace in 4 hours in a new build room. You think I shouldnt complain about this/ a system with repeated faults, this poor performance seemingly another. Wrong- I bloody well should be complaining. & many saying here its not even fit for purpose.

 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, markc said:

If they ever have an Oscar for forum threads, this one will get it

 

haha. Im going for the cup against Onoff. again. I shall prevail, him sloppy 2nds.

[joe90]

30 minutes ago, ProDave said:

but the installer or Vailant engineers should have checked all that.

 

So various engineers have visited multiple times and none has got it so it will heat the house properly.  I think it is time for a different tack.

 

This was installed by a grant scheme who then sent an installer to fit a system.

 

It does not work as expected and it appears the installers have washed their hands of it, after all, they have been paid.

 

I think what is needed now is forget the installers or the manufacturers, go higher up the chain.  Go the the company / organisation that you first dealt with.  They are the people your "contract" is with.

 

Tell them that the system that they organised to be installed is not fit for purpose, and you need it sorted out so it works.  Point out that the installers or designers of the system appear not to have done the job properly because after multiple visits they have failed to make the system work properly.  Point out that it is your opinion the grant money they provided has been miss spent paying an incompetent installer to install an inadequate system and then fail to make it work.

Dave, I said this many many pages ago, I do feel zoot s frustration but as said many times it’s not for him to sort out, he is not a heating engineer. I would take this up with trading standards, grant organiser and Vaillant and threaten to go to the press (that usually wakes people up.)

[ToughButterCup]

@zoothorn , can I respectfully suggest you go back through this thread and collate the advice given as a set of simple statements.

 

List them in order one below the other. Just imagine you were trying to show someone everything that you have learned : bit like this

• measure the size of the radiators
• find out their designation (type)
• measure the surface temperature of each radiator
• list the time the measurment was taken
• list the rooms and their volumes
• repeat the measurements every hour for 4 hours

and so on.

This would have several significant benefits, among others;

• You would reassure your readers that you had taken note of and acted on their advice
• It would allow readers to identify mismatches between what they had advised and what you did
• It would help you internalise the advice

But most of all, it would show that you respect the effort made on your behalf by contributors to this thread

[PeterW]

49 minutes ago, Onoff said:

You have a 12000BTU radiator in there. It could be working so well that it heats the room up super quick because it's three times the size it needs to be. Or it could be working at 1/3 of it's efficiency but that's all the well insulated room needs so it seems fine.

It is the latter. The rad is only rated at 12000 BTU at deltaT 50°C, and you have to de-rate them by the factor relating to the flow temperature. So in this instance it is 0.345 from memory, so 12000 BTU becomes 4140BTU which is only just in line with the 4121BTU calculated. 

[jfb]

Seriously Zoot - just do what Dave has asked multiple times and turn all radiators off but a rad in a cold room.

Make sure you have temperature readings of that room so you know the current baseline (both room temp and rad temp as good as you can).

Compare with how the temperature measurements you get when only this rad is getting heat.

 

Report back to us with the figures before and after.

 

It really is easy to do and pretty quick to get the results back.

 

I wouldn't start any process of 'going up the chain' (which I understand you are loathe to do) until you have done this.