zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, MJNewton said: Zoot, did you miss this? If not, and you just don't want to do it (for whatever reason), let me know and I'll stop asking you to do it. No I saw it. But just trying desperately to understand what on earth this process is for 1st. But after days trying I admit I'm defeated. So I'll put things on pipes tonight, give readings, without any understanding of the purpose, & Im back at sq 1 asking: I mean why wouldn't i surely get same flow and rtn temps if I know the rad lockshields are all open? ( or rather nothing suggests they aren't). Why do i need to do a test to reason this? Why if all rads the same temp do i need to measure one to the next, for what purpose is this?? Are they in balance as is if they all feel similarly hot, same time coming on? (I mean surely yes they are after all.. so.. why the next step of putting thermometres on??). Now if one or more rads showed unnenness to the others, then I could see logic to the procedure.. but they're all the same, so I can't. Just bc i see unnevenness in room temps it is not incumbent upon their respective rads not being in sync, being uneven relative to the next...... its soley bc the rooms in question are ridiculously cold, bc of no insulation. But whether room temp has - any- relevance to this procedure of putting these thermometres on pipes tho.. I have no idea whatsoever. A mystery. But I'll now do as asked. Thanks, zoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 42 minutes ago, zoothorn said: But I'll now do as asked hooray!!! Then I am sure it will be explained why and how you need to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, zoothorn said: No I saw it. But just trying desperately to understand what on earth this process is for 1st. But after days trying I admit I'm defeated. I can definitely understand the desire to understand why, but to delay even attempting it for several days until you do? It wasn't as if I was asking you to change anything - purely gather a bit of information that's all. I can't help but be reminded of my 3yr old daughter - every time I ask her to put her coat on she asks why? I always explain but it makes no difference. She'll keep asking why, particularly if the sun is shining as to her that means it's hot outside - I haven't been able to explain to her the nuances of the sun in winter. It doesn't matter though - she still needs to put her coat on whether she understands why or not (and whether I am able to adequately explain it or not). If she doesn't put it on she will remain cold. Quote So I'll put things on pipes tonight, give readings, without any understanding of the purpose, & Im back at sq 1 asking: Okay good. And as a token of my appreciation I'll try and answer your questions in the meantime: Quote I mean why wouldn't i surely get same flow and rtn temps if I know the rad lockshields are all open? ( or rather nothing suggests they aren't). Regarding flow temps, if some radiators are being starved of sufficient flow (for whatever reason - could be many reasons) then they won't necessarily be getting the same flow temperatures (very slow flow results in a lot of heat loss before even reaching the radiator). More to the point though - we still don't know what the flow temperature is! Sure, you've set the ASHP to 55C but are you getting that? What if you're only getting 35C? Straight away we'd know why your house is cold. Regarding return temps, these will vary depending on how much heat is being transferred to the room. With all else being equal (ie same flow rate) small radiators will have higher returns (there's only so much heat they can extract) whereas large radiators might be dumping loads (more than necessary). The former is particularly bad because that still-hot water is being returned back to the ASHP which may then be forced to throttle down in order to stay at the target temperature. Quote Why do i need to do a test to reason this? Because without testing the temperatures you're just guessing. Quote Why if all rads the same temp do i need to measure one to the next, for what purpose is this?? Do the test. If they're out of balance you'll see differences in temperature drops across the radiators and this will lead to you failing to get the most from your AHSP and in some cases (particularly where the heating capacity vs requirement is marginal) you may be failing to provide sufficient heat to all rooms. Quote Are they in balance as is if they all feel similarly hot, same time coming on? (I mean surely yes they are after all.. so.. why the next step of putting thermometres on??). Alignment of heat-up time is one aspect of balancing, but arguably the most basic. Furthermore, I'd see it as a consequence of real balancing which is aimed at producing the same (and specified) temperature drop across all radiators regardless of location, size, etc. I know you've got an issue with the term but that's tough. I think it's perfect. Big deal - let's move on. Quote Now if one or more rads showed unnenness to the others, then I could see logic to the procedure.. but they're all the same, so I can't. Okay, that's good to know. When you same 'the same' though that means nothing. All cold? A'l medium? All hot? All super hot? There's a reason temperature scales were invented - let's make use of them. Quote Just bc i see unnevenness in room temps it is not incumbent upon their respective rads not being in sync, being uneven relative to the next...... its soley bc the rooms in question are ridiculously cold, bc of no insulation. If you/we can conclusively demonstrate that the ASHP is providing sufficient heat (ie meeting the target flow temperature) and all radiators operating to their design specification (average temperature and temperature drop) and yet the house is still cold then we will know that the radiators are insufficient for the rooms they are in. Four solutions: 1) increase the size of the radiators (within the limits of the ASHP at least), 2) reduce the heat loss in the rooms (reduce drafts, increase insulation), 3) supplement the heating locally, or 4) tolerate the situation. Quote But whether room temp has - any- relevance to this procedure of putting these thermometres on pipes tho.. I have no idea whatsoever. The colder they are the better to be honest. As the room temperature rises the heat transfer from the radiator reduces and so it can throw the results. It's a detail not worth worrying about (particularly in this instance of course unfortunately). Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Back on ground I understand.. Can anyone advise here. door in position & Im happy about its size to frame: 2mm gap to frame --LHS here-- hinges side ( 1mm gap @ 2/3 rds way up, a slight bow in of frame here), 3mm gap above & @ rhs (latch side) nice even gaps here.. then lastly below: door hopefully skimming carpet opening in this side. plant on strips not yet fixed, so door resting on 4 x temp stops, wedged in around. I got a few issues. First is my door pulls out a bit, so there's a slight warp in it, top rhs as we look at it here, 5mm or so. So the door wont close flush onto the temporary stop behind, set in exactly 20mm as per door depth. Then I have where to position hinges, specifically where on the frame to attatch them. I know i asked this before, but now 1 st time I have door in final position, where they can possibly attatch to isn't quite so easy to see. thanks zoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 @zoothorn This is a book I had many years ago which I found very useful for explaining all aspects of CH. Can't go wrong for £2.98. https://www.amazon.co.uk/yourself-Central-Heating-Orbis-library/dp/0856138436/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash_scotland88 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, PeterStarck said: @zoothorn This is a book I had many years ago which I found very useful for explaining all aspects of CH. Can't go wrong for £2.98. https://www.amazon.co.uk/yourself-Central-Heating-Orbis-library/dp/0856138436/ I've got access to various BES, BSI, BSEN documents if he really wants to get into it - which I always forget about having a large library of various digital copies of building documents etc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markc Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Back on ground I understand.. Can anyone advise here. door in position & Im happy about its size to frame: 2mm gap to frame --LHS here-- hinges side ( 1mm gap @ 2/3 rds way up, a slight bow in of frame here), 3mm gap above & @ rhs (latch side) nice even gaps here.. then lastly below: door hopefully skimming carpet opening in this side. plant on strips not yet fixed, so door resting on 4 x temp stops, wedged in around. I got a few issues. First is my door pulls out a bit, so there's a slight warp in it, top rhs as we look at it here, 5mm or so. So the door wont close flush onto the temporary stop behind, set in exactly 20mm as per door depth. Then I have where to position hinges, specifically where on the frame to attatch them. I know i asked this before, but now 1 st time I have door in final position, where they can possibly attatch to isn't quite so easy to see. thanks zoot. Im assuming that is a ledger and rail door so the hinges should go on the rails.. If its a bit bowed or warped - could be made into it or just drying/settling, loosen the screws holding the rails and ledgers, push the door into the frame and then re tighten the screws, it should then stay put. Edited January 20, 2021 by markc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, ash_scotland88 said: I've got access to various BES, BSI, BSEN documents if he really wants to get into it I'm not sure he wants to get all technical, just to be able to understand how things work and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, PeterStarck said: I'm not sure he wants to get all technical, just to be able to understand how things work and why. Just why Im measuring the pipes temps, nothing more than that tbh, why i cant determine if a room or a rad is or isnt getting warm just by feeling it. The book a good suggestion, but likely wont understand nearly all of it if I cant understand the purpose of this balance procedure. Surely as a user we should be able to just set it to go on to a temp, expect it to go on then, get to the temp. At the mo im getting it to get to the temp just fine by all obvious accounts bc i can feel the rads are hot, & know without any question the reason some rooms warm & others are not isnt anything to do with the rads but purely down to insulation factors (so why the need to do any further temp tests if the rad temps check out seemingly all just fine totally eludes me), but, the only thing its not doing is coming on when i set it to. And I mean not just one rogue rad lagging behind ( if this was the case, then yes, i could finally see some logic in the pipe temp tests) I mean all the rads simultaneously: I set it to go on 6.30 am, it waits until 7.50am. Infuriating. But this aspect, the only one I have as in question, apart from the overnight noise that is, isnt mentioned. I don't get any of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, markc said: Im assuming that is a ledger and rail door so the hinges should go on the rails.. If its a bit bowed or warped - could be made into it or just drying/settling, loosen the screws holding the rails and ledgers, push the door into the frame and then re tighten the screws, it should then stay put. Ive got the positions on the door where the hinges go, up and down, on the 3x ledges I see on all the www eg's and makes most sense due to structurally thickest on these 3x ledges across.. but its how far inwards the hinges go on the door, when to fix them on, if ive got to also fix them to the frame, & where on the frame to fix them. I cant undo any of the door as the ledge and braces are glued & screwed. So its really whether I just set the plant on strips to follow this warp, or, do I just pull the door closed forcing it in slightly onto the plant on strips set where a non warped door would sit 5mm in. Or is this 5mm warp normal to expect on such a homemade door? thanks. Edited January 20, 2021 by zoothorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash_scotland88 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Just why Im measuring the pipes temps, nothing more than that tbh, why i cant determine if a room or a rad is or isnt getting warm just by feeling it. The book a good suggestion, but likely wont understand nearly all of it if I cant understand the purpose of this balance procedure. Because you're hand only tells if you is something is hot or cold. People are looking for numbers. As has been previously said 2degrees in the house can make all the comfortable difference but you and you're hand won't be able to tell what 2degrees is. The Others want to know how hot the water is coming into the radiator and how hot it is leaving, they will then be able to advise what needs to happen after this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 22 minutes ago, ash_scotland88 said: Because you're hand only tells if you is something is hot or cold. People are looking for numbers. As has been previously said 2degrees in the house can make all the comfortable difference but you and you're hand won't be able to tell what 2degrees is. The Others want to know how hot the water is coming into the radiator and how hot it is leaving, they will then be able to advise what needs to happen after this. Hi ash.. fine that is understood, yes I guess I could be assuming all rad temps are similar when they might not be in actuality (but if my spotty herberts likely left all lockshields open, as Id have thought they'd be brand new, then Id have thought it a very fair assumption to say that the rads are all similar temp even with my hand & if the last in the line too is making its room the only toasty room.. but I get your point). Where do I tape my sensor part of thermometers, any specific place or just on pipes somewhere around the rad in Q? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I want to post something useful but I can’t . I want zoots heating to be fixed , but I can’t . Farewell cruel world ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Just looking at a clip of balancing before I start, chap seems to suggest its all to do with -the order- in which the rads heat up. Or something. Even this isn't clear as to how the order can affect a room's temperature other than surely for 5 inconsequential minutes' lag when it starts to heat the room relative to the next rad which Id have thought is entirely to be expected, and not something either that you can change, or, even warrants changing either, if we're only talking minutes of difference: I mean why would i care if room X's rad gets up to temp at 7.10pm, when rad Y in next room gets up to temp 7.15pm? you wouldn't even register it, or if you did, you'd only notice it for 5mins. How would this meagre 5 mins be helping my fuel bills? And how this 5 minutes difference can alter a rooms temperature.. is bewildering (magic 5 minutes maybe??). More total confusion as to what the purpose of this exercise is. And the word -order- has barely even been mentioned within the replies too, but seems completely fundamental to this chaps explanation of the core purpose of the exercise. I have never been so confused, by anything, in my entire life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Nevermind all that. How's the measuring coming on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 19 minutes ago, zoothorn said: to suggest its all to do with -the order- in which the rads heat up. That’s what I said pages ago!!!!,!, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, pocster said: I want to post something useful but I can’t . I want zoots heating to be fixed , but I can’t . Farewell cruel world ? There's nothing wrong with it, nothing to fix afaict (apart from overnight noise & odd morning delay.. Vaillant's fault & to fix yes, but nowt to do with what temp the rads get up to). All rads get hot. They work as they should. Im still bewildered by any suggestion that they aren't. Bc my rooms are cold? b b but that's bc the house is freezing/ I expected it to remain freezing/ you cannot possibly get warmth retained here bc of no insulation/ no normal CH system could here/ unless.. only a stove in every room could, or twin jet engines put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, joe90 said: That’s what I said pages ago!!!!,!, You might well have done, & so it didn't make any sense then, & it doesn't make any sense now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, zoothorn said: There's nothing wrong with it, nothing to fix afaict (apart from overnight noise & odd morning delay.. Vaillant's fault & to fix yes, but nowt to do with what temp the rads get up to). All rads get hot. They work as they should. Im still bewildered by any suggestion that they aren't. Bc my rooms are cold? b b but that's bc the house is freezing/ I expected it to remain freezing/ you cannot possibly get warmth retained here bc of no insulation/ no normal CH system could here/ unless.. only a stove in every room could, or twin jet engines put in. Let's move on then and just talk doors! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, MJNewton said: Let's move on then and just talk doors! Haha. Its all i can cope with tbh. I am waiting for the system to go high right now tho.. and ill put up temps. I assume just put the probe near say the two lockshields, on copper pipes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) Yes, the pipe is generally best - consistent across all radiators regardless of valve type and easiest to fix to. Edited January 20, 2021 by MJNewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, zoothorn said: b b but Were you shivering when you typed that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, zoothorn said: I have never been so confused, by anything, in my entire +6910 Edited January 20, 2021 by Onoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, joe90 said: That’s what I said pages ago!!!!,!, Shhhhhhh again ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) I bet @PeterW offered to visit you with a baseball bat . To fix the heating of course ..... Edited January 20, 2021 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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