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SUNAMP relay failure - 2018 PCM58 FINDER 22.22.8.230.4000


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Got a call from our holiday cottage - guests  no hot water.

Thanks to @Nickfromwales support was quickly able to identify control main relay failure exactly as @Jeremy Harris I believe - with the neutral line remaining open.

Horrified to see it spark through the relay body and very annoyed no proactive input from Sunamp telling me to replace the relay so now got an expensive electrician call out for a short term replacement relay to get hot water flowing again - argh!

20200726_210549.jpg

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Sunamp say they are going to send me a new relay, they say they considered the Finder relay fine and therefore no need to contact existing customers!

I'll be sent the latest spec - though it was unclear what that is going to be.

 

@Jeremy Harris  Have you a picture of your replacement relay please ?

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That should be a socket relay not spade connectors.

 

What current is it carrying..? Ideally it should be a contactor.

 

Sorry, edited to add, are you sure that the relay number is correct on that Finder relay in the box..?

 

@Nickfromwales aren't these 3kw heater elements..? The Finder spec for that number is 12A

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11 minutes ago, readiescards said:

With spade connectors, Sunamp warn me this one also has visible sparks from the internal contactors

 

This is such a common issue on all sorts of equipment and seems to significantly reduce relay life. All for want of adding one or two supressors across the terminals to stop the sparking/arcing.

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What you have is a screw terminal DIN rail relay.

 

Why have the sent you a spade terminal screw mount relay as a replacement when they say the Finder one is "okay"?

 

I would personally replace with another DIN rail mount of another better make and higher current rating but then you have the thorny issue of warranty even though you would have fitted a better part.

 

I used to build industrial machinery and we quickly found Finder were not the best.

 

Of course you can fit the one they have sent just by crimping spade connectors onto the wires you have. then you have got to mount it somewhere.

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2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Of course you can fit the one they have sent just by crimping spade connectors onto the wires you have. then you have got to mount it somewhere.

That is now the OEM solution for any SA unit sent out in the last x number of months.

 

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

 

This is such a common issue on all sorts of equipment and seems to significantly reduce relay life. All for want of adding one or two supressors across the terminals to stop the sparking/arcing.

They could just fit a bloody SSR and all this goes away in a 'flash'.......

 

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

@Nickfromwales aren't these 3kw heater elements..? The Finder spec for that number is 12A

Yup, give or take. Seeing 15a is a worry, as it'll do the job but is still very close to the known duty. I know there's not massive shunt resistance with an immersion, but it should still have a lot more headroom IMO, even if just to promote longevity!

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12 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

They could just fit a bloody SSR and all this goes away in a 'flash'.......


@readiescards I would be looking at a permanent upgrade to a din rail SSR and get rid of the relay - cost would be £30 tops and makes it safe and also silent. 

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seems sunamp are still using "tombstone technology " like aero industry did at start of jet era ---when enough wings fall off -time to upgrade them

not doing themselves any favours long term for sales

especially when cost of these peripherals is so little in overall cost of the system

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1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

seems sunamp are still using "tombstone technology " like aero industry did at start of jet era ---when enough wings fall off -time to upgrade them

 

Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller.  Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. 

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48 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

..and how to failsafe it?

 

I suppose the question is how fail safe, it is a relative term? - IE fails safe every time or doesn't fail safe once every hundred million operations and burns the house down.

 

26 minutes ago, joth said:

Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller.  Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. 

Yep

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1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

...and how to failsafe it?

No different to the contacts in the contactor or relay welding themselves in the ‘closed’ position. And so far the failings I have witnessed are the electronics failing and sending a constant ‘on’ signal to the contactor / relay, so 6 and two 3’s. 
SA fail safe, as with all other heaters out there, is mandatory, so that’s why they have an OH stat on / at the immersion location for such terminal failures. 

They also have a doomsday PRV on the PCM cell to stop it bursting. Seen a couple of units now where I was surprised that PRV hadn’t opened!

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50 minutes ago, joth said:

Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller.  Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. 

Also means stocking a lot more spares for the duration too. They did use one same PCB but now that’s gone that’s another negative for sales. 

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