Boundary measuring professionals, do they have a name?

[epsilonGreedy]

My neighbour's fence, which is on my land according to the Land Registry, needs to be moved. The old post and rail fence deviates 2.5m into my plot over a 5m distance. My elderly neighbour is refusing to engage in any meaningful conversation on the subject. There is an imperative to sort this sooner rather than later because the old fence is preventing delivery vans entering the shared private drive on a reasonable arc and as a result vehicles are clipping the boundary hedge of another new-build neighbour.

 

I need someone with access to high resolution Land Registry maps to visit and mesure up the plots with an open mind.

 

Which section of the yellow pages would I find such an expert?

[Mr Punter]

Potential £££, time and much pain. And £££

[Mr Punter]

https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4

[epsilonGreedy]

3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Potential £££, time and much pain. And £££

 

 

I was prepared to ignore the problem until the very old lady sold up, she only visits 4 to 6 weeks a year. Now my new neighbour who purchased a completed new build opposite is having to repair his hedge base when it is clipped by traffic.

[Ferdinand]

The name would be surveyor or Chartered Surveyor, but measured boundaries would need to be done with mutual consent.

 

It may honestly be easier to make his hedge a bit shorter.

 

If the deviation has been in place with no action for x years then it becomes the boundary anyway.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

How does your title plan compare with the neighbours plan and the OS maps? 

 

http://www.land-registry-documents.co.uk/information/land-boundary-disputes/

 

[Temp]

https://www.independent.co.uk/property/house-and-home/hands-off-that-fence-or-youll-be-hearing-from-my-solicitor-1275693.html

 

Quote

Get a chartered surveyor experienced in boundaries to do an initial appraisal and to advise you whether to forget it or to go for a full survey. The Law Society has a list of expert witnesses." Expect to pay about pounds 100 for the appraisal and about pounds 500 for the full survey.

If you have a case, take the survey report to a solicitor, who should then write politely asking the neighbour to return the boundary to its original position, or arrange a meeting to discuss the situation. "Eight times out of 10 this solves it."

Judges encourage parties to boundary disputes to settle out of court. And, if expert witnesses cannot reach agreement before the case is heard, some have their own means of forcing a settlement. Says Powell, "One judge said, `Before we go any further I must tell you that I am minded to make you each pay your own costs whatever the outcome'. The lawyers were furious but they went out, reached an agreement, came back in and told the judge they had settled. `What a surprise,' said the judge."

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Temp

[Temp]

I think the main problem will be their lack of engagement with you. I don't think you can safely take the fence down without either their agreement or a court order. The latter might be expensive.

[CC45]

Remember that land registry is not the source of definitive boundaries - it just shows that there is a boundary in that approx area.  There are lots of mistakes on their database.  We were told that whats on the ground is the actual boundary.  Prob not what you wanted to hear.  We got our plot surveyed and triangulated off neighbouring buildings (that had been up for Q a while) and this helped our case.  Surveyer & good CAD person.  Good luck.

 

 

[ProDave]

So a post and rail fence has been there for some time, long enough for a hedge to grow along it.  What makes you think it is in the wrong place?

 

What clearly identifiable point on the LR map makes you think you can prove it is in the wrong place?

 

When we bought our plot, nothing on the plans could clearly identify any boundaries so we agree to buy it "as fenced"

[epsilonGreedy]

16 hours ago, ProDave said:

So a post and rail fence has been there for some time, long enough for a hedge to grow along it.

 

 

The section of the boundary in dispute does not have a hedge. According to the neighbour he fence was erected 4 years ago. A Google maps image from about 2006 shows some unhealthy hedge remnants where the Land Registry map indicates the boundary should be, these hedge remnants have now been replaced with mowed lawn.

 

16 hours ago, ProDave said:

What clearly identifiable point on the LR map makes you think you can prove it is in the wrong place?

 

 

The neighbour's garage built soon after they moved in 50 years ago.

 

I have taken a screenshot from the excellent Nimbus online plot mapping system which I assume is derived from Land Registry maps. The map is interactive and when a plot is clicked the area is highlighted in blue and the acreage is calculated. For scale the building shown is a single garage.

 

Her plot is the blue area. The disputed fence is shown about 2m to the right of the blue at the edge of the private drive though in reality it bends another 1ft further right as it runs up to the public road in white. The area in dispute is 4m x 2m running from the south elevation of the garage down to the public road.

 

My land is the finger which includes the left side of the private drive which is shared with the self build property to the right of the red boundary line.

 

[epsilonGreedy]

16 hours ago, CC45 said:

Remember that land registry is not the source of definitive boundaries - it just shows that there is a boundary in that approx area.

 

 

I think her own admission that she instated the fence 4 years ago after the first public hearing at the village hall to assess the planning application, means the current fense position is not an historical fact beyond debate.

 

The now disappeared hedge remnants closer to the Land Registry boundary as shown in the 2006 Google Maps survey reinforce my claim that the boundary was moved ahead of planning permission and development work.

[epsilonGreedy]

17 hours ago, Temp said:

I think the main problem will be their lack of engagement with you. I don't think you can safely take the fence down without either their agreement or a court order. The latter might be expensive.

 

 

The 2m strip is at the far end of her garden 35m away from her house and its return does not impede her access or use of her property, it is just mown grass extending up to the public road.

[Mr Punter]

If you think the fence was erected 4 years ago and is on your land and she does not live in the other property, just erect a fence where you think it should be, take the other one down and let her take action (expensive) should she wish.  When faced with the actual legal costs most people will not bother.

 

It does beg the question why you did not do this straight away?

[epsilonGreedy]

18 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

It may honestly be easier to make his hedge a bit shorter.

 

 

I suggested shortening the fence 1m and shifting it 1ft to 2ft left as a temporary measure while the plot boundary was professionally assessed. The shift 2ft left would only locate the fence on the second fence line within my plot shown in the screen shot above.

 

Her gardener offered to shorten the fence by 1m to allow me to reprofile the entrance curve but she countermanded him and offered a 0.5m shortening as a full and final settlement of the boundary dispute. I declined that offer.

[epsilonGreedy]

8 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

It does beg the question why you did not do this straight away?

 

 

The other self builder was using the entrance as hard standing for his bricks. The other end of the private drive was being used for access two years ago. The access swing problem only became apparent as the other new build house and landscaping was finished.

 

The owner of the disputed fence only appears for a few random weeks each year and this week was her first since summer 2019.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

The other self builder was using the entrance as hard standing for his bricks. The other end of the private drive was being used for access two years ago. The access swing problem only became apparent as the other new build house and landscaping was finished.

 

The owner of the disputed fence only appears for a few random weeks each year and this week was her first since summer 2019.

Then I would as suggested, quietly relocate the fence to where you believe it should be.

[joe90]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Then I would as suggested, quietly relocate the fence to where you believe it should be.

yes, and let her prove her case.

[Temp]

18 hours ago, ProDave said:

Then I would as suggested, quietly relocate the fence to where you believe it should be.

 

That would be risky. If I was her and felt the fence was in the right place I would call the police to report criminal damage and a breach of the peace. The police wouldn't get involved in the land dispute but would most likely tell you to stop until you have a court judgement in your favour.

[Russell griffiths]

2 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

That would be risky. If I was her and felt the fence was in the right place I would call the police to report criminal damage and a breach of the peace. The police wouldn't get involved in the land dispute but would most likely tell you to stop until you have a court judgement in your favour.

She cannot call the police if she doesn’t live there  

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

That would be risky. If I was her and felt the fence was in the right place I would call the police to report criminal damage and a breach of the peace. The police wouldn't get involved in the land dispute but would most likely tell you to stop until you have a court judgement in your favour.

But she is away most of the time.

[Temp]

You better work quick before whoever looks after the place calls her.

 

[Temp]

https://hardwicke.co.uk/boundary-disputes-a-quick-fire-guide-to-law-and-practice/

 

 

Boundary Disputes Protocol

A good place to start would be the Boundary Disputes Protocol, a non-binding pre-action protocol developed by a number of leading practitioners in the field. Unlike the CPR pre-action protocols, this protocol has no status in law; nevertheless, it provides a “best practice” guide to the early resolution of these disputes, and compliance with it is likely to be looked on favourably by any judge.

 

An expert surveyor

Poor quality boundary surveys are rife. A large proportion of disputes could be avoided by obtaining a high-quality survey at an early stage; this will inevitably involve a detailed plan (which should be in electronic format so that it can be reproduced, and from which detailed dimensions can be taken).

In many cases, specialist chartered land surveyors should be used. All too frequently, experts without specialist experience produce poor quality plans and reports, which do little to elucidate the position on the ground and, oftentimes, cause further confusion and entrenchment of positions.

RICS provides a useful search function on its website from which specialist surveyors can be located.

[LA3222]

Ha, I'm with everyone else here - get the fence moved and deal with the fallout when she notices.

 

If she then tries to move 'your' fence from its correct position, kindly ring the police and report criminal damage against your fence. In theory she will get told to get back in her box and take you to court, at which point the burden lies with her to prove/disprove etc. I suspect she won't bother. 

[Temp]

 Will you ever be able to go on holiday again ?