It was supposed to be fully renovated + patio build

[ReX]

First post here... so hello everyone.

 

I am not really a self builder, but in recent times I have done a lot of home renovation.

 

My partner and I bought a fully renovated middle terrace Victorian house less than 5 years ago. In the house everything is new, but shortcuts were made, so I took this as an opportunity to learn how to do new things, fix the issues and at the same time upgrade the house specs. I would be happy to talk about the projects I did and post some photos, but I am sparing you an incredibly boring and long first post.

 

Anyway, now that the house is done, I am focusing on the garden.

 

The new raised patio (porcelain tiles on Eterno pedestals) is now complete. I need to build, on the two sides of the patio, solid bases on which GRP planters will sit. Each base must be 540cm long, 40cm wide and 34-41cm tall (the patio is levelled but the garden had a slight slope). The planters will be 60cm tall.

 

The purpose of the bases is not just to support the planters, but also to avoid any lateral movement of the suspended patio (the tiles sit on top of the pedestals, they are not glued down). This is the reason I kept approx 44cm buffers on the two sides, instead of arriving full width to the lateral fences.

 

I have already started raising one side, reusing the concrete slabs I've removed from the garden (weird solution but this was a quick way to dispose them and avoid heavy lifting, as I am working on my own...), but I don't have enough slabs to get to that height, so I am now thinking how to move forward and ensure it is levelled.

 

How would you do it? I would like to minimise the amount of heavy material to carry through the house and I don't want to use wood.

The only thing I can think of is: get to the approx height with 300mm*440mm aerated concrete blocks and then lay on top 180cm*30cm concrete gravel boards.  But this won't get me to the 40cm width I need. These bases will be 3cm below the level of the patio tiles and fully covered by the planters, so the appearance of the surface doesn't matter.

 

Happy to post pictures of the patio, if that helps.

 

Thanks everyone and apologies for the long post.

[Temp]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Can you get deeper planters? The extra depth of soil might help the plants as well.

[Ferdinand]

Why not cast a support in situ? 

 

You could even reinforce it.

 

(Though make sure you are happy for it to STAY in situ - 'cos they are interesting to move later.)

Edited July 8, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

5 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Why not cast a support in situ? 

 

You could even reinforce it.

+1

With a bit of fancy shuttering they dont even need to be solid. Eg to reduce the amount of concrete you need to mix. Got any bodies to dispose of?

[ReX]

4 minutes ago, Temp said:

Welcome to the forum.

 

Can you get deeper planters? The extra depth of soil might help the plants as well.

 

Full height planters was the original plan, but then I gave up because these 60cm GRP custom made planters costed me a fortune (never considered in my life to spend almost 3k in planters) and making them 40cm higher would have increased the cost even more. 

 

Thinking about the hassle I am going through now, maybe it would have been better to get them 100cm.

 

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Why not cast a support in situ? 

 

You could even reinforce it.

 

Do you mean pouring concrete? I have never done it but from a quick calculation I got scared by the huge amount of material I need to reach 40cm. I will need some guidance here. 

 

I have added few pics of the patio, better than my words (the old yellow and red slabs at the end of the new patio are all lifted, there will be grass there). 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

to make your panters

precast concrete fence or sillage pit panels and just pour the ends to tie them together?

maybe even get them s/h for the taking away  ?

[Temp]

1 hour ago, ReX said:

The only thing I can think of is: get to the approx height with 300mm*440mm aerated concrete blocks and then lay on top 180cm*30cm concrete gravel boards.  But this won't get me to the 40cm width I need.

 

What about 40cm square paving slabs on top.

[Ferdinand]

I can't see from that where what the planter outline will be exactly.

 

In particular, how will you manage the base in with the fence, and eg future maintenance of the fence? (Arguably you should have used gravel boards up to the level of your patio or even the top of the planters.)

 

What is the ground the whole thing is sitting on? How rigid are your planters - do hey need support on 100% of the base?

 

(I am thinking about suggesting my favourite Adjustable Support Pads (patio feet) at about £5 each, that I use for a patio support, a support for a wheelchair path made from pavers, and also an adjustable support at corners of my shed as the ground moves, which are cheap and strong but they do need a decent base.)

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ReX]

On 08/07/2020 at 23:38, scottishjohn said:

precast concrete fence or sillage pit panels and just pour the ends to tie them together?

I googled but it seems a very heavy item to move around. I actually need to build only the bases, as the planters will be in GRP. 

 

On 08/07/2020 at 23:45, Temp said:

What about 40cm square paving slabs on top.

I think this is what I am going to do! 

 

How to level the surface below? I read it is possible to cut 100mm aerated blocks easily, but I think it will be a real pain to cut 6m + 6m of 300mm blocks.

Once I lay down the 300*440*215 blocks, what do I put on top of these and below the 400mm slabs to level the surface? I could use the same pedestals I used for the patio, but I wanted a more solid structure (less incline to lateral movement). Or I could screw or glue the pedestals (to both the blocks below and the slab above) and trust the weight of the filled planters.

 

On 09/07/2020 at 10:23, Ferdinand said:

I can't see from that where what the planter outline will be exactly.

 

If you look at my last picture, the tiled area is about 50cm distant from each fence. On the two sides of this area I want to build 40cm solid bases, reaching about the same height of the tiles (3cm below), keeping a distance of about 10 cm from the fences. This area is long 6 meters and the planters will cover the whole length.

 

Quote

In particular, how will you manage the base in with the fence, and eg future maintenance of the fence? (Arguably you should have used gravel boards up to the level of your patio or even the top of the planters.)

 

The 10cm gap allows for the maintenance, including removing and inserting the panels when needed. I agree with your comment about the gravel boards but the 10 cm gap avoids pressure to the fence and build out of damp (hopefully). I forgot to mention that before installing the planters I will either change the fence panels or install horizontal cladding (in stripes) on top (cladding from Rockpanel). 

 

Quote

 

What is the ground the whole thing is sitting on? How rigid are your planters - do hey need support on 100% of the base?

 

(I am thinking about suggesting my favourite Adjustable Support Pads (patio feet) at about £5 each, that I use for a patio support, a support for a wheelchair path made from pavers, and also an adjustable support at corners of my shed as the ground moves, which are cheap and strong but they do need a decent base.)

 

The whole patio / tiled area is built with a similar system (Eterno Ivica self levelling pedestals, I've attached a picture of the work in progress), but I wanted to give more lateral strength on the two sides (hence the two solid bases). Mainly because the tiles are not glued and the height is over 30cm. Having said that, it is rock solid, so no movement at all. 

 

Maybe I could go ahead with the hybrid (aerated block + short pedestal + tile) solution described above in my reply to Temp. As the pedestals will be only 10cm (if not less) tall and glued down, any lateral movement should be impossible.

 

[Ferdinand]

Good stuff - most informative. Looks well-considered.

 

My setup is similar but I use pavers.

 

(Also a slightly apology as all that is in your OP, and I try and catch all the detail 'cos it annoys me when I sweat over an OP and people only read 60% of it. it's easier to be incomplete or waffly, and yours is neither.)

Edited July 12, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

On 08/07/2020 at 22:41, ReX said:

First post here... so hello everyone.

 

I am not really a self builder, but in recent times I have done a lot of home renovation.

 

My partner and I bought a fully renovated middle terrace Victorian house less than 5 years ago. In the house everything is new, but shortcuts were made, so I took this as an opportunity to learn how to do new things, fix the issues and at the same time upgrade the house specs. I would be happy to talk about the projects I did and post some photos, but I am sparing you an incredibly boring and long first post.

 

Anyway, now that the house is done, I am focusing on the garden.

 

The new raised patio (porcelain tiles on Eterno pedestals) is now complete. I need to build, on the two sides of the patio, solid bases on which GRP planters will sit. Each base must be 540cm long, 40cm wide and 34-41cm tall (the patio is levelled but the garden had a slight slope). The planters will be 60cm tall.

 

The purpose of the bases is not just to support the planters, but also to avoid any lateral movement of the suspended patio (the tiles sit on top of the pedestals, they are not glued down). This is the reason I kept approx 44cm buffers on the two sides, instead of arriving full width to the lateral fences.

 

I have already started raising one side, reusing the concrete slabs I've removed from the garden (weird solution but this was a quick way to dispose them and avoid heavy lifting, as I am working on my own...), but I don't have enough slabs to get to that height, so I am now thinking how to move forward and ensure it is levelled.

 

How would you do it? I would like to minimise the amount of heavy material to carry through the house and I don't want to use wood.

The only thing I can think of is: get to the approx height with 300mm*440mm aerated concrete blocks and then lay on top 180cm*30cm concrete gravel boards.  But this won't get me to the 40cm width I need. These bases will be 3cm below the level of the patio tiles and fully covered by the planters, so the appearance of the surface doesn't matter.

 

Happy to post pictures of the patio, if that helps.

 

Thanks everyone and apologies for the long post.

 

OK. Sunday morning think though with a croissant and a cuppacoffee.

 

AIUI in a sentence you want to support a pair of full length approx 5.4m L x 0.6m H x 0.4m ish W planters with a base approx  to support the planters, prevent the patio in between wobbling, and compensate for a (very) slight slope (7cm over 5.4m). Is that right?

 

You are dealing with slightly under 1 cubic m of volume on each side for the supports if they are solid,  and just over 1 cubic m for the planters.

 

Let me ask a couple of questions:

 

1 - Does it actually wobble?

 

Have you tried getting 6 people to Do The Locomotion (*) or the Conga on it? Admittedly I use pavers on mine that weight 60kg each and nearly kill the handymen when they install one, but I have a wheelchair path made from them and they are as solid as a rock. If it is solid, then your anti-wobble spec may be unnecessary. Are you planning to mortar all your blocks together? That may be unnecessary. Do Eterno specify lateral reinforcement?

 

2 - Are they single piece planters?

A little maths suggests that each side will have a weight of a tonne just in topsoil. Even if they are a low density alternative, unless they are in about 5 sections they are never going anywhere ever again without a crane and you will be maintaining around them (which may be fine). Given your attention to detail I expect they are in sections.

 

It is possible that something loose plus the weight of the planters will prevent any potential wobble?

 

Huge things - you have got space to vanish an entire planning department without trace ! 

 

These are my thoughts

 

a - Your blocks will work to be the right width and height if you lay them on the flat at right angles or lengthways, as they are typically 215 x 440 x 100. Though that is a bit of a squeak to your 44cm gap.  But 100mm thick blocks on the flat would give you a nice 3-4" level below your patio level for the trough base which lets you sweep debris off and uses the planters as anti-wobble, as you suggest.

 

The small gap doesn't matter if the planter is never coming out again ?, and you just have piers not totally solid.  

 

There may be slightly difference size blocks somewhere if you look.

 

b -  However, there is no need for it to be continuous imo - I would have thought a 2x2 'pillar' every 1.3m or 1.7m would be fine, as a planter is an area load not a series of point loads. If you need distribution then consider something like plastic decking boards or gravel boards as you say. Fibreglass sheet may be an option.

 

c -  You could also do anti-wobble by finding a way to brace against the fenceposts. If they are concrete fenceposts, then a wedge of an appropriate sort may be all you need if anything at all.

 

d - For the slope. You have already mentioned that you are planning to perhaps use small pedestals. One suggestion is to use something called a "self-levelling head", designed to give a flat terrace on roofs with a say 1:40 fall underneath. Wallbarn do these nearly for pennies that can handle up to I think 5 degrees. See if Eterno do, or switch system if you need for the sides.

https://www.wallbarn.com/pedestals-2/balance/

 

Another option is just to use some offcuts from your patio tiles, and slates when you need them thinner,  not big enough to poke out of the  sides.

 

e - Personally I would go with pedestals and self levelling heads, just held down by the planters. But I would devise a test before I irrevocably committed.

 

Ferdinand

 

PS Remember drain holes in the planters. There may be an argument for having them 20mm up the side so that a water reservoir accumulates if that helps your planting.

 

*

  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ReX]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

OK. Sunday morning think though with a croissant and a cuppacoffee.

 

AIUI in a sentence you want to support a pair of full length approx 5.4m L x 0.6m H x 0.4m ish W planters with a base approx  to support the planters, prevent the patio in between wobbling, and compensate for a (very) slight slope (7cm over 5.4m). Is that right?

 

You are dealing with slightly under 1 cubic m of volume on each side for the supports if they are solid,  and just over 1 cubic m for the planters.

 

Yes, to be specific the planters will be as follow (for each side):

• 1 planter of 60 (length) * 40 (width) * 60 (height) cm
• 4 planters of 120,4 (length) * 40 (width) * 60 (height) cm 
• 1 planter of 60 (length) * 40 (width) * 100 (height) cm  

The 0.4cm accounts for the grout gap between two 60cm tiles.

From the list above, the planters 60cm tall will sit on the 540cm long base, while the planter 100cm tall will sit directly on the ground and will be paired to the step you see int he pictures.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Let me ask a couple of questions:

 

1 - Does it actually wobble?

 

Have you tried getting 6 people to Do The Locomotion (*) or the Conga on it? Admittedly I use pavers on mine that weight 60kg each and nearly kill the handymen when they install one, but I have a wheelchair path made from them and they are as solid as a rock. If it is solid, then your anti-wobble spec may be unnecessary. Are you planning to mortar all your blocks together? That may be unnecessary. Do Eterno specify lateral reinforcement?

 

There is no wobble, but there is a micro slippage of some peripheral tiles. I can tell that the tile gap expands from 4mm to about 5mm in some points. This really annoys me!

 

I am convinced that the slippage is caused by the fact that the pedestals compensate for the uneven / sloped floor with a self levelling head, but the body of the pedestal itself is actually perpendicular to the sloped floor, so there is a tendency to shift in the direction of the slope (not sure if my description, in my own English, makes sense). This doesn't happen with the central tiles, as they block each other.

Eterno suggest to glue the metal insert that you put between the head of the peripheral pedestals and the tile, but the reason is mainly to avoid noises caused by metal against ceramic.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

2 - Are they single piece planters?

A little maths suggests that each side will have a weight of a tonne just in topsoil. Even if they are a low density alternative, unless they are in about 5 sections they are never going anywhere ever again without a crane and you will be maintaining around them (which may be fine). Given your attention to detail I expect they are in sections.

 

It is possible that something loose plus the weight of the planters will prevent any potential wobble?

 

Yes, each side is four 120.4cm section and one 60cm section (see above), plus the 60cm section that sits on the ground.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Huge things - you have got space to vanish an entire planning department without trace ! 

 

Not sure I got that...!

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

These are my thoughts

 

a - Your blocks will work to be the right width and height if you lay them on the flat at right angles or lengthways, as they are typically 215 x 440 x 100. Though that is a bit of a squeak to your 44cm gap.  But 100mm thick blocks on the flat would give you a nice 3-4" level below your patio level for the trough base which lets you sweep debris off and uses the planters as anti-wobble, as you suggest.

 

The small gap doesn't matter if the planter is never coming out again ?, and you just have piers not totally solid.  

 

There may be slightly difference size blocks somewhere if you look.

 

Are you suggesting to put the blocks flat so that they are 100mm tall (from the floor level) and the remaining height is sorted with the pedestals?

 

I was actually planning to buy 300*440*215 blocks, lay down (on the 440*215 face) next to each other (so I would need 5400/215 = 25 blocks) to have 300mm height and close the remaining 70/140mm with the pedestals. Alternatively, if I lay them down along the 300*440 face, I would only need 5400/300 = 18 blocks and the height will be 215mm, with the rest to be closed by the pedestals.

 

Unnecessary?

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

b -  However, there is no need for it to be continuous imo - I would have thought a 2x2 'pillar' every 1.3m or 1.7m would be fine, as a planter is an area load not a series of point loads. If you need distribution then consider something like plastic decking boards or gravel boards as you say. Fibreglass sheet may be an option.

 

I like the idea of composite decking boards (I don't like heavy lifting). Will they last "forever"?

As you say, I won't move the planters again, so I won't want the boards underneath to rot.

 

Alternatively, on top the pedestals I'll put 400 slabs (I still have plenty to dispose).

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

c -  You could also do anti-wobble by finding a way to brace against the fenceposts. If they are concrete fenceposts, then a wedge of an appropriate sort may be all you need if anything at all.

 

I was also thinking about pulling wires in cross, to pull the pedestals against each other, but this would make the maintenance harder, as once one tile is lifted it won't resit easily again.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

d - For the slope. You have already mentioned that you are planning to perhaps use small pedestals. One suggestion is to use something called a "self-levelling head", designed to give a flat terrace on roofs with a say 1:40 fall underneath. Wallbarn do these nearly for pennies that can handle up to I think 5 degrees. See if Eterno do, or switch system if you need for the sides.

https://www.wallbarn.com/pedestals-2/balance/

 

Yes, that's exactly the kind of product I use from Eterno (self levelling heads), to compensate the slope (see above), but I was sceptical about using pedestals under the planters, due to the risk of movements. BTW the reason I went for Eterno and not Wallbarn is because you can fine tune the height without removing the tile/slab, using a key from the top (https://www.pedestal-eternoivica.com/it/prodotti/supporto-regolabile-autolivellante-per-pavimento-eterno-con-testa-in-bimateriale-pp-gomma).

But I think we both agree that short pedestals plus the weight of the planters should do the job.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

 

PS Remember drain holes in the planters. There may be an argument for having them 20mm up the side so that a water reservoir accumulates if that helps your planting.

 

I know close to nothing about gardening and plants in general. Are the holes necessary?

 

[Temp]

Just a caution.. I'm not sure how frost resistant aerated blocks are. I mean do they spall if they soak up water that then freezes? Dense blocks might be safer?

 

 

[ReX]

4 hours ago, Temp said:

Just a caution.. I'm not sure how frost resistant aerated blocks are. I mean do they spall if they soak up water that then freezes? Dense blocks might be safer?

 

 

I found contradicting info on the topic, but there are tests that confirm they are fine below ground and under DPC (e.g. https://www.forterra.co.uk/resources/news/article/2014/12/can-i-use-thermalite-blocks-below-ground). Indeed the 300*440*215 blocks are supposed to be "foundation trench blocks" (I am not an expert but I think that these go below DPC).

 

My preference is due to the weight, as I am going to do it on my own (due to covid I am not keen to invite people in).

 

Do you know if 800*400mm or 900*400 or 600*400 slabs exist? I tried everywhere but I could only find porcelain tiles or slates in this size.

 

[Temp]

There are some 800*400 concrete paving slabs but quite rare I think.

https://www.minsterpaving.co.uk/products/standlake-smooth/

 

[Ferdinand]

 

OK promised some further comment.

 

On 12/07/2020 at 12:24, ReX said:

Huge things - you have got space to vanish an entire planning department without trace !

 

That is, if you have any recalcitrant planners in your Council you have space to bury three in each trough. But your buying troughs only 1.2m makes it more difficult.

 

 I think you have a very good handle on it,  but I would say:

 

1 -  In my view,  it sounds as though your firbeglass planters may well be able to self  support to an extent,  and not need supporting over their full length (which could save some blocks and some work). You need to make a judgement.

 

2 - I have (will in a minute) attached a couple of  pics of my use  of the system. As you can see, I have done it with huge pavers, so nothing will move short of an intervention by a herd of elephants. The row of bricks  is me storing my spare housebricks in a channel which I also use  for  running satellite cables etc.

 

3 - I think the way I would suggest proceeding is to get your planters in, and get some blocks, then have an experiment to see what you think works before you commit to 300 blocks. If fewer will do it - so much the better.

 

4 - I would recommend putting a couple of drawstrings in under your patio at the sides whilst you can - if you may want to insert electrical cables, watering systems etc later. Alternatively you may decide that they will run happily behind your planters and can be added later.

 

5 - I think it would make sense to have an automatic watering system for your planters. There is conversation on the forum about that. Several of us use the Kleber system.  

 

6 -  You need to consider *now* if there is any extra structure you need to put in -  eg do you want a pergola to help transition the space from the house to the patio? If you do, then however you are going to support it needs to be considered.

 

7 - I think the most important thing to say is that you now need to think about your planting as thoroughly as you have about the patio itself.  You have a huge amount of trough, and having spent yonks of money on the planters, you owe it to yourself to do the rest so carefully.

 

Do you, for example,  want to dedicate one section to growing hanging veg and fruit (tomato / beans / aubergines etc)? (Will need a framework).

 

I would suggest getting some advice from somewhere on that, as it will effect what type of soil and compost you use. It will make a huge difference to your enjoyment.

 

8 - Yes, the holes are necessary. Otherwise in extended rain it will  turn into a large bucket of water with some soil in it, and over time will kill your plants as the roots will get no oxygen. 

 

Although there might be an idea in turning a planter into a water garden or bog garden.

 

(As  I say - take some proper advice as these planters are your outdoor-room decor for the next 10 years).

 

That's all from me, unless you have some more questions.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ReX]

On 12/07/2020 at 22:16, Temp said:

There are some 800*400 concrete paving slabs but quite rare I think.

https://www.minsterpaving.co.uk/products/standlake-smooth/

 

 

Thanks, that could be an option, if I managed to get 15 delivered. I wonder what could be the tickness.

 

On 13/07/2020 at 12:33, Ferdinand said:

 

7 - I think the most important thing to say is that you now need to think about your planting as thoroughly as you have about the patio itself.  You have a huge amount of trough, and having spent yonks of money on the planters, you owe it to yourself to do the rest so carefully.

 

Do you, for example,  want to dedicate one section to growing hanging veg and fruit (tomato / beans / aubergines etc)? (Will need a framework).

 

I would suggest getting some advice from somewhere on that, as it will effect what type of soil and compost you use. It will make a huge difference to your enjoyment.

 

I think I might need to hire a gardener, not just for the planters but also to sort out the remaining 15-18m of garden on which we would like to have grass.

 

The garden was infested with weed that took over the grass. We though we managed to kill the weed over the course of 1 year (with multiple rounds of weedkiller) but we only killed the grass. As soon as it rains the weeds grow, in just few days. It is not bad as it was (it was a jungle originally), but still there is a lot of it. I think that even if we get new grass/turf, it will be ruined by the weeds quickly.

 

I am almost convinced I would prefer high quality artificial grass, but my partner is against it.

 

[Ferdinand]

Consider hiring someone to plant it and maintain it for at least one season.

 

May get a better package price, and will get past the difficult stage. Make sure that you learn in that time by asking millions of questions.

 

But as with everything, you get back the work you put in.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Ferdinand