Bitpipe Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Never mind floating shelves, our final stairs arrived today but there is a small snag.. We have a single staircase void for the three staircases (basement to ground, ground to first and first to loft). We chose this particular stringless stair design for the top two flights as the top flight is viewable from underneath and we want it to look the same as it does above. http://www.max-stairs.co.uk/?c=gallery&m=150 We went for more basic stairs to the basement. The stairs arrived as individual risers and treads - very substantial oak. They bolt together with hidden fixings and look very sharp indeed. However, when the installers arrive we find out that they expect to fix each riser through to the wall to prevent movement which in our case is tricky as there is just timber stud wall clad in OSB and plasterboard. We pointed this out in the survey but it was obviously overlooked. So we now have two options, first to have a single string under the wall side and second to cut out the PB and put reinforcement in the wall and make good. First option might be ok for the ground to first flight as the underside is above the basement stairs and is only visible when heading into the basement. Second flight would leave the stringer visible from the ground floor so that wall will need to be cut, strengthened and made good. Joiner is giving me a quote tomorrow - he thinks its quite straightforward, not much material required but a bit of labour. Question is whether I ask the stair firm to pay as they quoted and supplied us a design that by their own survey would not work. They are offering to make the new stings and ship over from Poland for free (guess that there is little cost in this for them) but we really want the look we were going for on at least one of the staircases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Stick to your guns on this one, would be my answer. A year after moving in I can still see every compromise and imperfection in our house. I wish I'd stood up and demanded better in some cases. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Hugh, how substantial is the studwork? Is it 38×89 CLS or better? And at what centres? I realise that this might seem harsh, but I am not really sure that you can really blame this one entirely on the installers. All stairs need a structural stringer of some form either explicit or derived from the wall. Even with a decent CLS studwork, my own preference would be to brace this before adding the PB, either with decent dwangs following the line of the stairs or an extra vertical CLS members at 90° to the main studs screwed in them -- again before PBing -- to give you a wide fixing point. This type of stringerless staircase puts a significant load on a stud wall and more than a non-loadbearing studwork is really designed to take. I suspect that the stairs have hidden fixings pre-drilled into the stairs so that you've got little or no play in positioning these fixings and hence they normally won't be aligned to the vertical studs. I can't think of any easy quick fix here, and I would be personally wary of "quite straightforward" fixes: Who is taking the risk if the fix doesn't work as envisaged? You need to be confident that the fix both works and achieves the final finish that you are seeking without the wall finish starting to break up after a year or two. This type of stair makes its impact by having a very clean wall line and any additional stringers or cutting out the PB on the stair side will be difficult to add the bracers without spoiling that clean line look. Any flex or vibration in the stairs will tend to break up any patching. What is on the other side of the hall? You might be able to add the bracing dwangs from the wrong side of the wall, and fix / bond them to the PB and between studs without compromising the PB on the stair side. This opposite side won't be under the same load as the stair side and so the PB repairs should a lot more solid. If necessary you can always add another skim coat to the entire wall if you aren't satisfied with the repair. Ask them how often the stairs need anchored? Every stair or once per metre or what? Clearly if you only need to add bracing every alternate 40 (or 60 )cm then this would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) Off the wall, but I had a similar problem with the heavy banister rail installed by our predecessors who had clearly forgotten something (like studs in the wall) and ended up fixing it to the wall with plasterboard fittings. It came off within months. Spent nearly a day with a stud detector and drilling holes to find any woodwork in the entire wall, and only managed to graze a water pipe and find one piece of frame I ended up buying an oak plank for mounting the banisters, and some 10x10cm pieces of stainless steel sheet, bolting through with domed heads on the stair sides, and leaving the back as a talking point in my office. I like showing working. Can you install something the *other* side of the wall (bookcase, shelves, shallow cupboard, a wall-size mural or large canvas 3" off the face?) and fix it directly through the wall? A mural etc could be mounted on the bolts you have showing :-). IF it was me I would think about a false wall entirely in cork tiles or matt whiteboard for drawing pun or magnetic fixing of whatever. I used to ave one when I was a kid. That would give you a clean line on the stair side and the joiner could work on the other side. But this should probably be Plan B. Edited December 20, 2016 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Thanks all - it's the spine feature wall of our house and is very substantial as we built it to party wall standards - there was a vague notion to enable the house to be split into two if ever required so this is effectively two Csl stud walls side by side. Pretty confident that we can brace as required, making good will be the trick but we have an advantge here as the lower wall was clad in 12mm Osb to provide racking strength. There is a layer of 12.5 pb over this and in the floors above it's a double layer of pb. Joiners plan is to cut the outer layer twice the width of the inner layer cut required. We will then secure the sections of 40mm plate along the line of the stairs, cutting it into the cls vertical timbers and then put a section of 12mm ply over that before putting PB on the outer layer. He feels that this will minimise cracking. Other side of the stairs is a full height atrium but we don't need to go through to that as there's plenty of support in the wall itself. Stair people are happy with that solution. I've asked them to pay the 2-3 days labour as they sold me a staircase that they should have known I could not have installed - they did a full survey and noted the wall construction. Staircase is built, on site and paid for so I'm committed to having it. Also saving them the need to make new stringers and ship them from Poland. No word yet so we'll see what comes back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Like I said on another post, Buy British,? Would save everyone complaining about Brexit, and maybe help a lot of the problems this country has,?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 On 21/12/2016 at 02:37, Steptoe said: Like I said on another post, Buy British,? Would save everyone complaining about Brexit, and maybe help a lot of the problems this country has,?! That would have made no difference, the issue was a lack of communication in the factory, not a language barrier between us. The stairs they did install (which have traditional stringer) are extremely well made and expertly installed, very happy with them. Looks like they're leaning to agree to pay for the work required so happy with that. Anyway, we live in a globalised market economy, I'll buy local when the quality, price and service justify it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Joiner starting work today to add some 6x2 supports inside the wall and then make good, stair firm have agreed to fund, hopefully worth the mess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) On 21/12/2016 at 02:37, Steptoe said: Like I said on another post, Buy British,? Would save everyone complaining about Brexit, and maybe help a lot of the problems this country has,?! On the back of what Trumps proposing, to in effect punish US companies who move manufacturing (shares?) abroad etc, Ford are now NOT building a plant in Mexico. Means 700 jobs for the US. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.wired.com/2017/01/fords-us-expansion-victory-trumps-trolling-tactics/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung UK utilities, railway companies?? Edited January 5, 2017 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Lets keep this thread on topic about stairs and related joinery please and not veer off into a political discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ProDave said: Lets keep this thread on topic about stairs and related joinery please and not veer off into a political discussion. Agree. It's a good discussion point though so I'll move to the off-topic thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 Back to the stairs. My joiner tackled the reinforcement after xmas, three days to chop into the wall, reinforce and make good. Stair guys came on Saturday and there were a few nail biting moments while they drilled that first hole. Almost finished now, just some glass to go in and a bit of detailing. Looks like the top floor is uneven, gains 10mm over a metre - likely the underlying floor vs the oak floating above. Stair guys will manufacture a new top piece which will hide the slope. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Great looking set of stairs but how do they work?! Must be some pretty clever fixings into that osb! Even then I think I would want the fixing into the noggin to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, Oz07 said: Great looking set of stairs but how do they work?! Must be some pretty clever fixings into that osb! Even then I think I would want the fixing into the noggin to be sure. It is all upthread :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 The fixings are very clever. The first riser is bolted vertically into the floor below. The tread is secured with dowels and the next riser is held by three steel bolts through the tread. There is also a steel fixing that holds the riser into the wall (that's where the reinforcement was needed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 In conclusion I learned a few things from this: 1) don't order stairs until your finished floors are complete and walls are plastered - final dims can change from drawings and you don't want to be hacking expensive stairs about to fit. Also check what support your stairs need - if not sure a big wodge of timber in the wall to cover all eventualities is probably not a bad idea. 2) if you're after a certain look that's really important to you, don't compromise. I'm glad we held out and went for the more disruptive option to get the look we wanted. 3) most mistakes can be remedied and often are not as drastic as first though. 4) removing and reinstalling MDF staircases is a great way to stay fit. The three that we have must have been in about out a dozen times each during plastering, painting and this recent malarkey. Considering selling them as a keep fit accessory. Seriously though, what to do with 3 x Jewsons softwood & msg stair cases? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I did look upthread but it didn't really explain the clever fixing. Obviously that neat little bracket just fixes through into your nogs or cls? whos the supplier. I'd have a set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 On 12/19/2016 at 21:51, Bitpipe said: http://www.max-stairs.co.uk/?c=gallery&m=150 ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 21 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: Considering selling them as a keep fit accessory. Seriously though, what to do with 3 x Jewsons softwood & msg stair cases? Stick them on gumtree. . If they've helped you then pass the good luck on. Maybe to another self-builder who needs the lifeline . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 22, 2017 Author Share Posted January 22, 2017 Good idea - one set has been outside for a month, still look ok. Will put a tarp over them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grosey Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Bitpipe said: Good idea - one set has been outside for a month, still look ok. Will put a tarp over them. Interested in them, if you are anywhere near Plymouth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 8 hours ago, Grosey said: Interested in them, if you are anywhere near Plymouth? Maidenhead - I guess all distance is relative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 A bit more 'readers stairs' promise this will be the last - unless there are some requests for specific angles Sparky is coming to do LED strip in handrail later - he buried a cable in the wall and will use their pre drilled fitting to get cable to the rail. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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