When is derelict really derelict?

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, joe90 said:

my wife’s argument against allowing planning applications is there are not enough local “services” (doctors schools etc etc)

Point out that many local services are under used.

Take schools, 36 weeks a year for a few hours, five days a week, 6 hours a day.  About 12% of the time.

Doctor's surgeries are similar, but higher at 35% of the time.

Until recently, my local Tesco was running at around 85%.  The supply chain runs 100% of the time.

We really under utilise many public assets.

Take the water system in the SW, it is about 4 times larger than it needs to be, just so it can cope with 8 to 12 weeks of the year.

Electrical grids are the same.  60% of the time I draw nothing from the grid.

 

Environmentally we don't want isolated housing, we need to expand towns and cities, but properly, rather than just cram people into small properties, we need to increase the urbanisation land area (currently about 2% for housing and 10% urbanisation).

 

There was a bit in the papers about people wanting to move to rural areas because of the COVID-19.  Noticed that the estate agent across the road from work only has the very expensive houses in his window, not the cheaper, ordinary ones, he has hidden them.

[joe90]

19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Environmentally we don't want isolated housing

however, a common complaint is that Young farm workers and people already living and working in rural area,s Can’t afford local housing.

[scottishjohn]

23 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

 

Environmentally we don't want isolated housing, we need to expand towns and cities, but properly, rather than just cram people into small properties, we need to increase the urbanisation land area (currently about 2% for housing and 10% urbanisation).

 

There was a bit in the papers about people wanting to move to rural areas because of the COVID-19.  Noticed that the estate agent across the road from work only has the very expensive houses in his window, not the cheaper, ordinary ones, he has hidden them.

that then brings us to the next big problem  spralling conurbations 

with the very real possibility of all the paper pushers working from home or indeed anywhwere in the country we need to spread population +work places  out and not keep cramming them  in s/e  of england  or the central belt of scotland -that will improve air quality and life quality  and cut down on commuting 

 there is a minimum size of a village /town that can be long term viable - and plenty of space to make it happen

as for cheap  housing --that would come if more sustainable jobs were in the country side and not just crammed into cities

genral house prices in my area shows that 

we need more housing even if its for holiday homes or retiring peole -as that will make more employment for the services industries that are not forestry ,agriculture or tourist based

[scottishjohn]

take that jetty part of my property 

30acres -now if planning would allow

you could build 360 houses at 12 to the acre- and I would very happy to sell it to a developer at 10k a plot - LOL

theres all the housing you need at cheap  prices

 but I can guess what they would say --no need for that much housing --,

 we need coucils to be able to allow such things if plot prices are low enough ,they could even be involved by buying it to start with and controlling things

theres your social housing problem sorted

I remember when councils had direct works dept  ,that did just that 

[SteamyTea]

25 minutes ago, joe90 said:

however, a common complaint is that Young farm workers and people already living and working in rural area,s Can’t afford local housing.

Not many people employed in farming these days, and there will be a lot less over the next few years as automation takes over.

12 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

that then brings us to the next big problem  spralling conurbations 

That is why it needs to be done properly, rather than this silly piecemeal system we currently us.

 

Take @joe90, he is just on the Devon side of the Tamar and has a completely different planning policy from 3 miles west.  Segmenting to tiny areas are not the way to plan longterm as any vision is totally lost.

[scottishjohn]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not many people employed in farming these days, and there will be a lot less over the next few years as automation takes over.

and that statment shows how much you know of farming in all but the flat lands of england 

like to see you automate sheep and live stock famring in the hills -or fruit and veg picking -they would have already done it if it were possible

 not to mention the animal and wildlife deserts that automated 100acre field type of farming causes

Edited June 8, 2020 by scottishjohn

[SteamyTea]

33 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

and that statment shows how much you know of farming in all but the flat lands of england 

Does it now.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.AGR.EMPL.ZS

[RichC]

I'd like to see the people who want to farm on a small scale for their own self sufficiency and profit be able to do that without draconian planning legislation assuming that they are there to build a secret mansion in the countryside.

We could really energise rural communities with thriving local markets and local deliveries that rival the big supermarkets.

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, RichC said:

...

We could really energise rural communities with

...

 

But energy requires effort.

More commonly, I see stasis. Its easy to do nothing. So, more often than not, that's what happens.

[scottishjohn]

23 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does it now.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.AGR.EMPL.ZS

this is the usual  gobal type statement that has no meaning in reality to the most of the uk

we don,t have the prairies or the stepps  of russia or the very small agricultural systems of so many under delveoped 3rd  world countries

 

[scottishjohn]

29 minutes ago, RichC said:

I'd like to see the people who want to farm on a small scale for their own self sufficiency and profit be able to do that

planning use 30 acres as minimum land required to be economically viable as a general rule now in my area in scotland 

no doubt if you going to have battery chickens that might cut it down  a bit,

but the"good life" with 5 acresof crap ground  will not get you PP  round here 

you need to prove it will be commercially viable if you PP on those terms

 and you need to show a NEED to have people on site --so a big "tattie field " won,t cut it

Edited June 8, 2020 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

I was considering the quarry as a fish farm + holiday chalets --that would cut it and then build another house at top of quarry as "managers house". with same views as my one 

 lots of ideas --just not enough time and money 

Edited June 8, 2020 by scottishjohn

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

this is the usual  gobal type statement that has no meaning in reality to the most of the uk

Show us your evidence to the contrary.

That same link shows UK data to.

Edited June 8, 2020 by SteamyTea

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

planning use 30 acres as minimum land required to be economically viable as a general rule now in my area in scotland 

no doubt if you going to have battery chickens that might cut it down  a bit,

but the"good life" with 5 acresof crap ground  will not get you PP  round here 

you need to prove it will be commercially viable if you PP on those terms

 and you need to show a NEED to have people on site --so a big "tattie field " won,t cut it

  

2 hours ago, RichC said:

I'd like to see the people who want to farm on a small scale for their own self sufficiency and profit be able to do that without draconian planning legislation assuming that they are there to build a secret mansion in the countryside.

We could really energise rural communities with thriving local markets and local deliveries that rival the big supermarkets.

 

That's interesting - far more intensive farming is possible.

 

There was an interview a few weeks ago with a couple doing 50k of veg and produce a year off a couple of acres near Exmoor (iirc). Part of the key was polytunnels and careful succession planting through the year.

 

I think it was on Farming Today (might have been the weekend Farming Today this Week). Start listening to it - far better than the thin gruel of Countryfile. Only kept for 30 days,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj8q/episodes/guide

 

And the single business interviews every week on "On Your Farm". Kept forever, here are 374 of them: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006s571/episodes/guide?page=1

 

Podcast feeds available.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

I think we would all agree this one was derelict, but it got permission for a new house    https://www.hspc.co.uk/Building-Site-For-Sale-27-Melvaig-Gairloch-IV22-2DZ

[scottishjohn]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I think we would all agree this one was derelict, but it got permission for a new house    https://www.hspc.co.uk/Building-Site-For-Sale-27-Melvaig-Gairloch-IV22-2DZ

got a link? --to see what they allowed , out of interest

certainly no chance down here of getting PP on that 

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, scottishjohn said:

got a link? --to see what they allowed , out of interest

certainly no chance down here of getting PP on that 

Only what you see in the advert.  If you download the particulars it may give the PP reference that you can look up.

 

I suspect because there are two other houses, it just scraped in on the building in an established settlement clause.

[scottishjohn]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Only what you see in the advert.  If you download the particulars it may give the PP reference that you can look up.

 

I suspect because there are two other houses, it just scraped in on the building in an established settlement clause.

looked no link to PP-so it does not have FULL PP --just you can reapply --good luck with that 

[RichC]

3 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

but the"good life" with 5 acresof crap ground  will not get you PP  round here 

you need to prove it will be commercially viable if you PP on those terms

 and you need to show a NEED to have people on site --so a big "tattie field " won,t cut it

 

I'm no expert, but I do know that there are plenty of people doing very well on several well managed acres.

And anyway, why should anyone have to prove that they can be commercially viable? If the land provides for you what you need to live then that's enough.

 

I am very critical of the Welsh One Planet Development scheme, but those who have undertaken to follow the restrictive covenants that it puts in place have multiplied many times the productivity of what was previously rough grazing land. 

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, RichC said:

And anyway, why should anyone have to prove that they can be commercially viable? If the land provides for you what you need to live then that's enough.

because they are trying to build on green belt which is for agriculture -so it must be viable to comply

I don,t make the rules  or even agree with them sometimes,

 

[Temp]

20 minutes ago, RichC said:

And anyway, why should anyone have to prove that they can be commercially viable? If the land provides for you what you need to live then that's enough.

 

Well you also need to pay taxes.

[ProDave]

34 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

because they are trying to build on green belt which is for agriculture -so it must be viable to comply

I don,t make the rules  or even agree with them sometimes,

 

Not ALL green belt is suitable for agriculture.  Yes I would be the first so say no to digging up a good arable field to build houses.  But where I came from, within the village there were several pockets of scrappy little bits of land, not even of any use for grazing yet not able to build on them as they are "green belt"

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yes I would be the first so say no to digging up a good arable field to build houses

How about a bad arable field, or one that is used to grow flowers on, or maybe just to keep pet horses.

And that if before ex farmland is turned into golf courses.

One thing that we don't have a lack of in the UK is land.  We just have a system that stops us doing much with it.

This may well change if we change our farm subsidies, but I am sure the new system will be fiddled, abused and not fit for purpose.

[RichC]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

because they are trying to build on green belt which is for agriculture -so it must be viable to comply

I don,t make the rules  or even agree with them sometimes,

 

Viable to comply with PP? It seems to me that what you're saying is PP should be given to commercial ventures in preference to private individuals simply because they make more money?

I think we need a planning system that actually turns this notion on its head and looks out for the individual.

[ToughButterCup]

21 minutes ago, RichC said:

....

I think we need a planning system that .... looks out for the individual.

 

An interesting idea.

Could you develop that idea a bit?  How might it be possible to discriminate in favour of one group or the other (taking individuals to be a group) ?