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What would you do about this?


recoveringbuilder

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This is the elephant in the room as far as our new house goes and it is quite literally an elephant in the room. I’ve mentioned this before as some of you may remember but it’s one of these things that won’t go away and is really bugging me.

So when we were building and came to the stage where we were getting measured up for the staircase ( which we had paid as part of the kit) the staircase company discovered that the staircase could not be situated where the architect had it on his drawings, not as a straight flight anyway. The architect became very nervous and paid several visits trying to work out something that would work and eventually came up with a design which would keep it starting against the wall then turning and ending up half way along the mezzanine so it would not encroach into the room . The staircase company did plans for this and all looked as if it would come to a satisfactory conclusion however once it was priced up they were looking for another £5.5k, now as I said at the start we had already paid for the staircase that should have been installed so I went to the architect and told him I expected him to foot the bill for the extra over however he was having none of it and said that if he’d designed the proper staircase to begin with we would have had to pay for it anyway but as I tried to tell him I probably wouldn’t have paid £11k for a staircase and would have gone for a cheaper option but now 7 months down the line with all the other oak doors and finishing all in situ it would look odd to put in a cheaper staircase.

we were getting nowhere with him and quite frankly didn’t have a spare £5.5k so we got him to look at other options. Eventually he decided if we brought it out 1200mm from the wall we would get the desired headroom and he agreed to pay £1100 for the extra glass balustrade and oak handrail that would be required ( at this point I threatened him with legal action if he did not)

I agreed to this as I was getting fed up waiting for the staircase and it seemed the only way to get it all sorted.

so we’re now a year on from the staircase being installed, quite frankly it looks ridiculous and has reduced the usable space in the room by 2 metres and it’s really putting me off the whole house. 
the house isn’t signed off yet as our garage is on the same building warrant (another mess he’s made) and I’ve been looking for solutions to this. I had the engineer out to see it and he agreed it wasn’t right and suggested I get another architect to look for a solution. When the other architect came out he wasn’t happy with it either and he was of the opinion that it still didn’t meet building regulations and suggested I got the building control officer to come out and check it. I did this and got a rather whether or not chap who didn’t have a tape measure (!!) to check it, I offered to get him one but he mumbled something about it not being that simple and concluded that he would pass it as it stands.

 We needed to get a temporary habitation certificate and for this we needed an amendment to warrant in respect of the staircase and I contacted the original architect to do this which he did immediately without charge. 
we had decided that we would then wait until the garage is finished and all signed off then we would revisit the staircase problem however I had occasion to speak to the other architect the other day and he asked how I had gotten on with bco, when I relayed everything to him he said we would be silly to let it go and that we should ask for another visit from the head of bc and insist that he measured it. I’ve done this and await a visit from him next week, should he agree that it is not compliant we intend to go to litigation with the architect, I’m not looking forward to doing this but as I’ve been told he will have insurance to cover this I feel it’s the only way to go other than us having to fork out for another staircase, several visitors have remarked they wouldn’t buy this house with the staircase the way it is and I feel we haven’t got the house we’ve supposed to have. Any views on this please?

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Surely the architect originally would have done detailed section drawings to show the original staircase design worked and complied.  did he do this?  If so do the drawings show compliance? or has the building been built in some way different to the plans causing the non compliance?

 

What are you hoping to achieve?  someone to find a way for the original design to comply with whatever alterations to the building are necessary?

 

Most of us would just be happy that BC are going to sign it off and that would be the end of it.

 

Pictures might help understand what aspect of the stairs is "wrong"

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He didn’t do sectional drawings to my knowledge anyway @ProDavealtough maybe he did and we just never saw them, it has been said that because he hand draws his plans this is why it happened, if he’d done cad drawings we believe it would have flagged up at the beginning that it was never going to work. I’m not being petty about this, the position of the staircase is horrible and when you walk into the room you only see the back of it which looks like a shute in a play park, at some point whether we win this or not we are going to have to change it, it’s also very steep 42.5degrees, so much so that I won’t allow the grandkids to go up there.The ideal outcome would be to install the one he designed (along with the staircase company) that had the turn in it, I just feel that it would be a bit rash of us to fork out all this money without trying to get him to take responsibility for his expensive mistake. There’s no way that the original position could ever be achieved and I just wonder if he really didn’t understand how his roof design was going to be built and the angles that would be there thus interfering with the headroomimage.thumb.jpg.85859727591f93eb6340344ed4311b66.jpg 

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37 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

because he hand draws his plans this is why it happened


that beggars belief !!!! 
 

40 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

if he’d done cad drawings we believe it would have flagged up at the beginning that it was never going to work.


too right, i designed my staircase using pencil and paper with relevant dimensions and angles, it’s not rocket science. I don’t know what qualifications he has but I am surprised he is still in business. I think that is professional incompetence. Sue him!

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@joe90 he is a man in his 60s , has been an architect all his life, we used him on our last build back in 2007 but I think he’s losing it, have spoken to another couple of self builders in the area and he has made mistakes with them too, one stopped him in his tracks as soon as it was discovered the other made him pay for putting the job right, I think I was lax in agreeing to this set up and I’m quite angry with myself for letting it happen but I think by the time I got to this stage after having to fight SP energy and the problems we had with Scottish water I had just lost the will to live!

the problem now lies with whether or not it complies with BR , since I stupidly agreed to where it has been positioned I think if it complies I won’t have any comeback on him although it could be said I don’t have the house I was meant to!

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1 minute ago, Christine Walker said:

although it could be said I don’t have the house I was meant to!


No, you don’t have the house you paid him to design!!! 
 

p.s. I am in my sixties but can still design a staircase even without any qualifications ?

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I have designed the stairs for my proposed house and tbh it took me far too long to figure out the design, that said I am not an architect, and they are only on paper (CAD) so far.

 

Could he have under estimated the roof thickness, and with a thicker roof causing the reduced head room.

 

Have you got the original drawings?

 

From the photo that stairs look very imposing, from your description, it sounds like it has a quarter turn after the first step.

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It has no turn at all , just straight up, it should have been next to the wall and had a cupboard under it for the ufh manifold but as it is we’ve had to cover the manifold with a radiator cabinet, I don’t know what he thought about the ceiling, it’s cathedral but has a lot of angles going on and therein lies the problem, the picture I put on is what you are faced with when you walk into the room , which is meant to be a dining room, we have the pellet stove on a feature wall and the space from this to the staircase being reduced by around 2 metres now means when you sit at the dining table you either can’t get your chair back very much at the stair side and at the other side if the stove is on your getting roasted !

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I think you're taking the best course of action.  Sounds like, having accepted the compromise and the architects £1100 (and I fully understand why you would), you really need BC to rule it non-compliant before you can re-visit the architect for a resolution/compensation. If it turns out to be compliant, I'm sure the buildhub collective can come up with the most suitable, best cost alternative for when you're ready to replace - just need some more pics and plans!

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That is, well... it's a bit of a shocker, isn't it? To be fair I can't see the whole of the room, to see its full effect, but it's hardly a decorative centrepiece. Is it possible to post the floor plans of the two floors, so that we can see it in context?

 

Stairs can be a bugger, because you need to visualise them in 3D. What works well on one floor might not on the next. I'm guessing that you have a sloping ceiling on the first floor, which restricts headroom and prevents you from putting the stairs in the position you first wanted.

 

But ProDave is right to ask what you want the outcome to be - that should be the first question you ask before any litigation. If you want the original option, well, it seems that that is impossible, so no amount of suing will get you that. Often, the outcome of any legal action, is that both parties end up being disappointed. Which is not to say that you don't merit some form of compensation.

 

I'm no fan of spiral staircases, but could that be a solution? Because you are effectively dealing with a cylinder, you have some control over which way the top and bottom treads are facing, which may help. And it'd be prettier than what you've got.

 

Or have you thought of asking the second architect (or some other architect) if he could find an alternative solution? Sometimes creative types can see a way round problems that us normal people though was impossible.

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Two pieces of information that it may (or may not) be helpful, but expect you are on top of this already.

 

1 - Is he actually still registered, and which organisation is it with. Worth a check? You have probably done this. 

 

ARB have an online Register of Architects here:

http://www.arb.org.uk/public-information/finding-an-architect/

 

May affect the likelihood of whether he has insurance. If he is not and still saying "Architect", that is some sort of offence due to the reserved-in-law word.

 

2 - Which organisation is he a member of. They may well have a dispute resolution service. RIBA do, for example.

 

May be too late for that.

 

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

Looks a steeper angle than regs allow?

That is correct, however the quoted 42.5 degrees is marginal as a breach over the max 42 degrees. I do not know how that would be handled, but I would guess that it may be "we will draw a veil over that if it is acceptable to you", unless you had a tickbox warrior. Not sure how that point would go down in Court - whether the small violation would be significant or the Judge would harrumph, or whether it is useful as leverage.


Ferdinand

 

 

Edited by Ferdinand
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I have checked the register as suggested and he is still registered, pictures attached, second architect suggested spiral which I definitely don’t want as I’ve a friend with one which causes problems for getting furniture up and down. Looking back on communication with the staircase firm it seems it is 41.92degrees but it looks and feels much steeper 5B395846-CA85-4958-81FE-40D088E2CB09.thumb.jpeg.9f0b50c8026dac7930de7823cf2a69dd.jpeg58445783-3C4D-400B-933B-3C14166A078C.thumb.jpeg.ceed797c5b55a891d0e1296a34b12b11.jpeg

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34 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So, if you pushed the stairs over to be against the wall where the grandfather clock is, how much headroom would you have?  i.e. how far short of meeting regs would it be?

 

it would be good to know, but i think that a vaulted ceiling slopes down to that area, and it gets even tighter (ironically i think that the vaulted ceiling where the issue is, is @Christine Walker profile picture during construction), i presume the regs is the 2m height clearance on stairs 

 

43 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

pictures attached

 

Ouch, that looks worse from this angle, and i can see that its not going to be a simple solution, are you able to upload plans so the location can be put in context? if you have them, you can message me the PDF's i can cover all the personal information (e.g. site address / architect details) before you post publicly.

Edited by Moonshine
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2 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

r, i presume the regs is the 2m height clearance on stairs


I think I remember regs saying 2m height min but not across whole width of stairs (from my loft conversion days!,!!)

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3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I think I remember regs saying 2m height min but not across whole width of stairs (from my loft conversion days!,!!)

 

But that is purely a exception for loft conversions (which this isn't), so i think that its the full 2m over the whole width of the stair.

 

See page 7 and 8 below

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/443181/BR_PDF_AD_K_2013.pdf

 

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