Kingspan.. for a dummy.

[ProDave]

The regulations on socket and switch heights refer to "general purpose" sockets.  You can have a dedicated function socket at any height you like, e.g. the high up one for the tv.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

The one word answer is 'yes'. I was just explaining that there is also a maximum height too, and the arguably minor detail that it is measured to the centre of the socket and not the bottom as your electrician said.

 

 

Ok thanks. I can now understand the centrline is horizontal (I was thinking a vertical centreline.. ? eh.. & my head was hurting trying to understand). Right. So actually the answer is 410cm to the btm edge of socket then as minimum (if its horizontal centreline of socket is 450mm as minimum).. I can only assume.

 

So this Q has introduced another factor, this 1200mm figure. So this refers to my switches -maximum- height they can be? is this correct?

 

[MJNewton]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So this Q has introduced another factor, this 1200mm figure. So this refers to my switches -maximum- height they can be? is this correct?

 

Yes, but note the language in Part M revolves around making 'reasonable provision' [for wheelchair users to use the dwelling and its facilities] and so there will be circumstances where a socket/switch might be perfectly acceptable to be positioned outside the limits. Note also that these requirements don't apply to extensions.

 

Was there something specific you had in mind, or just asking out of curiosity?

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by MJNewton

[Onoff]

The OSG, (On Site Guide) makes no mention of the 450 / 1200 dimensions being to the centre lines. In fact it says "between" and shows the top of the switches at 1200 and the bottom of the sockets at 450.

 

 

[MJNewton]

The reference is from the Approved Document, and whilst only offered up as guidance for compliance with the Building Regs they are generally regarded as authoritative references of how they can be met. The ambiguity over where the measurement was to be taken was only removed in 2015 with the introduction of it specifying it being the centre line. There'd been nearly 20 years of inconclusive forum discussions prior to that. It only matters to people like me who can't help but measure these sorts of things...

Edited February 27, 2020 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

14 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

 

 

Was there something specific you had in mind, or just asking out of curiosity?

 

 

 

Just simply where do I have to put my socket, where my light switch. That's all. But these regs xyz & the spiel.. jesusH.

 

Thanks alot chaps.

[MJNewton]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Just simply where do I have to put my socket, where my light switch. That's all. But these regs xyz & the spiel.. jesusH.

 

 What would we talk and debate about then though?! This stuff matters, and forms the bedrock of the modern Internet.

Edited February 27, 2020 by MJNewton

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

 

Just simply where do I have to put my socket, where my light switch. That's all. But these regs xyz & the spiel.. jesusH.

 

Thanks alot chaps.

 

Wherever you want as it's an extension and not a new build or rewire pretty much. 

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, MJNewton said:

 

 What would we talk and debate about then though?! This stuff matters, and forms the bedrock of the modern Internet.

 

I swear I'm gonna pop open the champers not at the new extention party zoots dancing girls & dancing bears & stuff going on etc.. but to toast never having to read another building form thing!

[MJNewton]

 

You'll be back.

 

(Did you know there are rules and regulations about that sort of thing?)

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Wherever you want as it's an extension and not a new build or rewire pretty much. 

 

Eh? so the 450mm & 1200mm figures.. are n/a for an extention? wtf.

[Onoff]

I actually really like top of switches no higher than 1200 and bottom of sockets no lower than 450. As I go through this place redoing rooms that's the height I put them. 

[MJNewton]

Same here. When we moved into this 'new build' it felt odd having sockets so high up, not least given our previous place still had some sockets on the skirting boards. We soon got used to them and have grown to prefer it.

 

That said, I did install a run of outlets (mains, aerial, ethernet, surround sound etc) at around 300mm (centre line, of course ) in our extension as looking around at 'modern' TV units it seems many of them are only 400mm-or-so high these days (I suppose as screens get bigger the stand height gets lower if you want to maintain optimum eye-level positioning) and didn't want them all on show, particularly if we wall mount the TV and run the cables up inside the service void to it.

Edited February 27, 2020 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I actually really like top of switches no higher than 1200 and bottom of sockets no lower than 450. As I go through this place redoing rooms that's the height I put them. 

 

Well that's where the sockets have gone uostairs room/ done, but I'd have wanted them near the floor to be discreet myself, if I'd known. dammit. But the lower room's are above the workbenches.. I best call the BCO & check now I guess.

 

thx zoot.

[Onoff]

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Eh? so the 450mm & 1200mm figures.. are n/a for an extention? wtf.

 

Think about it. You build an extension on the back of your existing lounge then knock the wall through to make one big room. In your existing lounge you've loads of sockets and switches at whatever height. It'd look fu**ing silly to put the ones in the new room at 450/1200. No one can make you go with the new heights not even the BCO.

 

But if doing a complete rewire or new build it makes sense to go with the new heights aside from compliance.

 

If your existing sockets are sat on the skirting then that's daft, further down to lean etc especially when your older.

 

Now your two new rooms, they're separate from the original rooms so there's no visuals to worry about them matching.

 

Blu-tac a socket at 450 up and a switch at 1200 and see what you think.

 

Treat a workbench like a kitchen worktop and put the sockets no lower than 150mm from top of bench to centre of socket. It prevents the wire from the plug getting put under strain.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Onoff

[Mike]

Personally I prefer my light switches to be on the same centre line at the door handles. Been specifying them that way since well before there was a maximum height.

[PeterW]

6 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But the lower room's are above the workbenches..

so they are exempt from Part M

 

If they are above the work surface they can be any height. I would fit them at 1150 which puts them 250-300 above the top of a standard workbench. 

[Onoff]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Personally I prefer my light switches to be on the same centre line at the door handles. Been specifying them that way since well before there was a maximum height.

 

You might have swayed me had you dived in when I was asking the whole door handle height thing! I do like the logic of light switch height and door handles being the same.

 

Having had elderly parents fall and then specifically say, "I couldn't reach the door handle!" I now though err towards lower than higher. I think too it depends on the door style. I mulled where to put my bathroom locks & handles recently but in the end went centre level with the top of midrail. With hindsight I might have equispaced them about the centre line of the midrail.

 

 

 

Metalwork cost more than the paper mache doors in the end!

 

 

 

[Onoff]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

so they are exempt from Part M

 

If they are above the work surface they can be any height. I would fit them at 1150 which puts them 250-300 above the top of a standard workbench. 

 

I quite like the lab/bench type boxes so you can mount sockets up under wall cupboards and facing downward.

 

For example:

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Worktop-Station-Socket-Pedestal/dp/B07VXRKN78/ref=asc_df_B07VXRKN78/?

[zoothorn]

Interesting ideas chaps- I too like the idea of switches at door handle H.. so might shift down a bit.

 

Anyway my electrician just popped by, & said yes effectively Onoff correct about new extention not needing to comply with 450mm.. but said a 'grey area' plus its just best to go 'safe' in case a grumpy BCO he said. So better safe than sorry/ they'll go 450mm.

 

I'll take your advice Peter & go 1150mm for my workbench sockets then.

 

Many thanks.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Anyway my electrician just popped by, & said yes effectively Onoff correct about new extention not needing to comply with 450mm.. but said a 'grey area' plus its just best to go 'safe' in case a grumpy BCO he said.

 

There's nothing grey about it - Approved Document M clearly states, for the mandatory section where minimum/maximum heights for sockets are prescribed, it does not apply to extensions:

 

 

I'd still go for the 450mm minimum though as, personally, I like it.

Edited February 28, 2020 by MJNewton

[Dreadnaught]

Interesting.

 

(b) any part of a building that is used solely to enable the building or any service or fitting in the building to be inspected, repaired or maintained"

 

Would that excision apply to: A plant room? A utility room or laundry?

[MJNewton]

I think the implication of the exception is that a wheelchair user would not be expected to be involved in repair and maintenance, but I would expect laundry-related sockets/switches to be in-scope. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

Ok thanks for detailed info on this- no not a grey area then per se, but we're doing it safe.. & going 450mm. My '78 fender twin is higher, so will cover the most visible double socket twds one corner anyway.

 

All kingspan in both rooms' walls in, just LE soudal foam the gaps today.. this job done. Great to get this job out the way.

 

So next is the dividing floor/ ceiling insulation. Ive gone for both rooms l.e.d. 5w downlights.. as I wasn't too sure on led battens for workshop. What I hadn't accounted for, & what my 'leccy chap says needs, is a cleared space around each light within the ceiling insulation: not a prob upstairs room, but far from ideal in the dividing floor/ ceiling which I was planning to make a noise-contained-as-possible "lid" to the workshop below (without going ££ all-guns acoustic insulation).. the 6 downlights will now be a noise escape route.

 

What's the min ammount of cleared space I should be doing for these downlights? very little heat produced from these led bulbs compared to hot halogen gu10's. I do have the whole height of the floor (180mm in my case) to play with.. could I foam-fix-in some kingspan offcuts above each I wonder wedged between the joist tops?

 

thanks, zoot.

[zoothorn]

Does anyone know if its definite I have to put some sort of membrane over the timber studs & kingspan, IE before the plasterboard?

 

If so can anyone shed any light on this job..

 

thanks, zoot.