Critique my Design?

[Ferdinand]

Trust you welcome a candid comment; I am taking it that you are exploring the universe of possibilities.

 

IMO this one will be very (and unnecessarily) expensive to build because of all those stepins from GND to 1st Floor - as I make it you have about 20-25m of upstairs outside wall which is above voids on the Ground Floor, and the corresponding amount of single storey roof. Won't that mean umpteen columns and beams, each of which will cost you £500+ extra? And then you will have sealing and jointing and flashing and cold bridge and access problems. Simplify away the vast majority of it by adjusting your room sizes.

 

On the design approach, I get a feeling that you are still doing a bottom up "sum of parts" thing - here starting with a list of rooms and what you want each one to be, rather than looking at the house as a whole. Even the (good) presentation is a series of tableaux rather than a walkthrough of a house. You need a unified whole. I am slightly reminded of the Windmill Theatre "tableaux vivant" circa late 1930s in the design/presentation; I want a full blown Moulin Rouge Can Can instead.

 

I think you are being driven by what other people do, or find acceptable, rather than thinking about your own requirements. "What is normal" or "what do other people want" are questions for a developer. Self builders can nod to them, but they should imo be subsidiary. Trust yourself.

 

On details, I agree with @epsilonGreedy that there is too much subdivision. IMO the way to get wow in a relatively small house is to have fewer, larger rooms, using vistas etc creatively. There is also imo a too-large amount of circulation space. What is that long balcony expressly to be able to have a pot plant at the end ? ? Put the espace in the bedroom.

 

On that sneak pantry: two points. Firstly the need for it is a symptom of a different problem - access to the kitchen is not thought out thoroughly. Secondly, it is a pink elephant - what does the extra door, the corridor, and 3 cupboards add over a simple door from the hall to the generous utility? Put the space in the hall to give you WOW, make the loo a better size with a shower for infirm visitors, and put the cupboards in the utility. 

 

(Were you to stick with the sneak pantry I would say put the 2 doors opposite each other at the kitchen end and make the rest a bigger shower and proper cloak closet.)

 

On fixing the layout, I would probably put the theatre front to back on the RHS, incorporating the playroom (gives you your 5.5m). I would then make the kitchen-diner-living into one room screened off from the theatre, by a wall or those bifolds. (As they are they will mean there is a 1m wide run of floor you can never use). I would make the the theatre the correct size for repurposing as a garage - may never happen but it answers a real question with a "yes, you can". Children's playroom? Somewhere else or "let them watch films" or accept that mutual-murdering and cinema will not often happen simultaneously.

 

As you suggest, I have ignored the upstairs. But how will you clean that window at the front above the door?

 

Ferdinand

 

 

  

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Ferdinand

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I feel the bed chamber of the master bedroom suite is small relative to the overall scale of the house.

@epsilonGreedy - thanks for responding!

 

Yup, you hit on my main concern that I'm trying to make sure I get right:  pushing towards large/grand important spaces, and minimal "everything else" (utility, beds, where we don't spend a lot of waking time.). To us this seems sensible, and it's intended as a long-term home for ourselves, yet "resale value" is not completely ignored, plus we might be wrong about our own preferences.. would we "in retrospect" be "happier" with e.g. a smaller hall and larger bedroom? 

 

 

Quote

If the ceiling is open to the roofline that would help.

 

Yes, that is part of the plan. 

 

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If I was tweaking the design for my preferences I would dispense with the bed chamber door and have an open aperture, about 50% wider than a standard door, leading to the dressing

area.

 

Interesting idea, I will mull this one over. One concern is that me and my wife have different bed schedules, so there's often one sneaking in/out of the bedroom while the other already sleeps, so indeed noise is a concern. 

 

Quote

 

My suggestion was based on a projection of the landing when standing at the front door, that image is embedded further up this thread. I remember thinking "interesting semi glazed door leading into the master bedroom suite".

 

Not sure if glazing is a great idea though, privacy and all.

 

(ha, this view shows my shoddy attempt at lengthening the chandelier chain by means of a shower handrail  )

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Your latest update showing the recessed doorframe is exactly how I imagined it, I feel it provides a balance to the view of the galleried landing because in the update both sides of the landing lead somewhere.

 

Yep, thanks for the tip! Really easy improvement right there.

Quote

In general as houses get smaller there is no opportunity to create any layout mystery, at 1000 sq ft a landing is often windowless and presents a crowed array of doors. At 2600 sq ft and with a few tweaks you are half way towards your own Downton Abbey.

 

Yep, as said above, I think frankly our plot/house/budget size prevent us from doing the effortless opulence of large/spaciousness and "money is no concern", but there are some thing we can do at acceptable compromises elsewhere.. I just really appreciate the opinions of people like yourselves on if this makes the house a 'nightmare' (all form, no function..) or actually positively impacts the experience of living in it (not just being ready for the off chance that the queen is going to visit..)

Edited December 6, 2019 by puntloos

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I imagine the OP's children are currently young cherubs and anticipates them raiding the cookie jar via the secret pantry's hallway door. My concern is that 12 years later in their late teens the same door will offer access to covert swigs of the household gin bottle. ?

 

How dare you sir. It will be a household XO Cognaq bottle.

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Trust you welcome a candid comment; I am taking it that you are exploring the universe of possibilities.

 

Absolutely not, this is the finalfinal amazeballs design worthy of the Bill S. Preston Esquire and Theodore Logan price for excellence and anyone raising any critique is wrong and makes me and multiple puppies very sad.

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

IMO this one will be very (and unnecessarily) expensive to build because of all those stepins from GND to 1st Floor - as I make it you have about 20-25m of upstairs outside wall which is above voids on the Ground Floor, and the corresponding amount of single storey roof.

 

Form over function, obviously. Slightly more seriously though, what I think you're saying is that for simplicity and therefore build cost, walls should ideally be in a straight line through multiple floors, not offset. Makes a ton of sense, and well, this is frankly purely laziness on my part. Meaning: our architect has provided quite a nice design for our top floor (I'm not sure I can share her work freely on this open forum.. I think they retain some ownership on this, plus they were just sketches so far. I can share privately if interested, PM me, but it wouldn't fit the ground floor either.) so the top floor of this house is not really mindfully designed to actually fit, but really just a bunch of ideas thrown together.

 

You're very right that ha, pretty much no 1st floor walls match with the ground floor ones. I award myself a B- for Bogus design.

 

Single-storey roof though, not sure if that's a problem? I guess we have 'more than one roof' - one 2nd floor and "a few" 1st floor sections, is that dramatically more costly than one big roof? I'm sure it is.. but the house does look prettier for it. As an example  - compare a pretty old version of the house design:

 

with the current (sorry a bunch of render artifacts in the current that I meant to fix, but you get the idea)

 

Perhaps it's not worth the $$$ and of course mindful of your point of supporting walls vs beams and columns etc but IMO the new one is a more aesthetically pleasing design..

 

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Won't that mean umpteen columns and beams, each of which will cost you £500+ extra? 

 

Uh. Ask a pro, not me.  QUick note: many people speak about very expensive omgomg and actually mean "5000 GBP extra cost" - yes it adds up and I strongly appreciate sturdy/solid/elegant designs, but purely from a financial point of view 5000 isn't making me blink too badly..

 

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

And then you will have sealing and jointing and flashing and cold bridge and access problems. Simplify away the vast majority of it by adjusting your room sizes.

Yup, sounds sensible

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

On the design approach, I get a feeling that you are still doing a bottom up "sum of parts" thing - here starting with a list of rooms and what you want each one to be, rather than looking at the house as a whole. Even the (good) presentation is a series of tableaux rather than a walkthrough of a house.

 

Difficult to be honest about from my point of view, I'd like to think my view is more 'as a whole' than you give credit for but frankly it is true that my requirements doc provides a ton of 'atomic' requirements that are patched together rather than a big vision through and through. You and I had the same discussion earlier and perhaps I'm too engineery and not artistic enough ... for one, this is exactly why I'm using a proper architect in this as well

 

I'm hoping my design has a decent philosophy behind it, and ticks a ton of boxes.. but there you go

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

You need a unified whole. I am slightly reminded of the Windmill Theatre "tableaux vivant" circa late 1930s in the design/presentation; I want a full blown Moulin Rouge Can Can instead.

 

Do you have some examples of what it would look like?

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I think you are being driven by what other people do, or find acceptable, rather than thinking about your own requirements. "What is normal" or "what do other people want" are questions for a developer. Self builders can nod to them, but they should imo be subsidiary. Trust yourself.

 

Well, I do agree, but if anything that's what I'd argue I was doing.. for example not going for a full garage, having a large hall sacrificing 'bedrooms' (both number and size.. I could easily do 5BR if I really wanted) etc.

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

On details, I agree with @epsilonGreedy that there is too much subdivision. IMO the way to get wow in a relatively small house is to have fewer, larger rooms,

Well, surely that's exactly what we have with the very oversized living area?

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

using vistas etc creatively.

Example?

 

As for under-sized rooms:

- Utility is currently massive, obviously. Only turning it into a real garage is a compromise the 'next buyer' could choose to make

- Sneak pantry... I could imagine this going away in favor of even larger garage but there should be plenty storage anyway.. it got there mainly because the wife envisioned the whole 'not bothering the movie-watchers' scenario. 

- secret/consumer unit- reason it's there is that for having a nice TV watching experience, the office was actually too big.. the sofa was far away from the screen... 

 

Anything else? I kinda agree with the 'feeling' but I'm not sure what exact steps to take. I think EGreedy suggested removing pantry/toilet, but he(she?) needs a massive garage, we definitely don't..

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

There is also imo a too-large amount of circulation space.

 

This I think you might be correct in.. of course that pantry is a culprit there.. but I'm hoping our Architect will optimize that.

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

What is that long balcony expressly to be able to have a pot plant at the end ? ?

Yes, that's Ferdy the Fern. 

 

No, it's.. one of the artifacts of my design crappitude.. which is that my top floor is not reallly solidly designed. 

The key reason that I didn't do your below suggestion:

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Put the espace in the bedroom.

 

Is exactly because the space is only a small amount of sqm and it makes the spacious feel of the hallway much much better in the renders:

vs

I would much prefer that walkway to 'go somewhere sensible' but even when it doesn't, the spaciousness seems to matter...

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

On that sneak pantry: two points. Firstly the need for it is a symptom of a different problem - access to the kitchen is not thought out thoroughly.

 

Well, perhaps.. I'd love to hear better solutions.. maybe I'm a cynic but I think *most* of houses such as this one don't have any solution for 'sneaking into the kitchen while the main living is in use' use case, they just assume that people will have to deal with people barging through the 'theatre'..

 

But maybe no solution is better than a poor one?

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Secondly, it is a pink elephant - what does the extra door, the corridor, and 3 cupboards add over a simple door from the hall to the generous utility? Put the space in the hall to give you WOW, make the loo a better size with a shower for infirm visitors, and put the cupboards in the utility. 

It's a fair point. I guess this might come from my simple assumption to create a small-but-feasible optional garage, and take everything else from there. The space was there, the hallway had to be in its current place to not clash with the pillars in the living room... it's good of you to flag since it might not even be needed.

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

(Were you to stick with the sneak pantry I would say put the 2 doors opposite each other at the kitchen end and make the rest a bigger shower and proper cloak closet.)

 

Good idea. Hm, choices.

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

On fixing the layout, I would probably put the theatre front to back on the RHS, incorporating the playroom (gives you your 5.5m).

The problem with such a design would be that we enjoy "looking at the garden" - in particular from the seating area. Either the seats would face directly away from the garden(as I think you are proposing), or the screen would block said garden view...

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I would then make the kitchen-diner-living into one room screened off from the theatre, by a wall or those bifolds. (As they are they will mean there is a 1m wide run of floor you can never use).

Someone put it to us once that "unused space is a luxury" - I wonder if thats a correct sentiment in general and here in particular. Agreed that you could never put something permanent where the bifolds are now, but Id note that the bifolds will probably be open 99% of the year, only to close in the case of guests who we would want to shield from kitchen mess/noise.

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I would make the the theatre the correct size for repurposing as a garage - may never happen but it answers a real question with a "yes, you can".

 

This is an interesting idea i'd have to mull over a bit more, thanks. Still, the point stands that in your proposed spot, the cineroom would be too 'cine-room-y' and not 'family-living-area-with-nice-multimedia-y' 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Children's playroom? Somewhere else or "let them watch films" or accept that mutual-murdering and cinema will not often happen simultaneously.

 

 - eh, depends on how many kids there will be

 

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

As you suggest, I have ignored the upstairs. But how will you clean that window at the front above the door?

"Very Carefully" ..

 

Worth thinking about but that one doesn't sound too hard with some extend-o-pole-swiping thing. A lot harder with windows above a piece of flat-ish roof on the 1st floor.

 

Thanks a ton for all your candid comments, they are much appreciated, I was hoping for you to respond

 

[Ferdinand]

Followup.

 

I think that WOW in a hall depends on having a huge space (say with a staircase AND a dining table - in our family small manor house there was a Jacobean staircase with a 15ft high x 6ft wide arched window, and the hall was about 20ft x 16ft in addition), or playing to create perceptions of space. Surprises also help, so eg a dark low ceiling porch into a bright high ceiling space is dramatic - Frank Loydd Wright did this in houses.

 

Perhaps try:

 

Pull sneak corridor into hall.

Try some sort of rooflight feature to give something to draw the eye upwards.

Try a dogleg staircase across the side and back, which will mean they see the double height space immediately on entering.

 

I think that perhaps your kitchen and office are a little 'average'. In my kitchen I have 30+ 600mm unit spaces in toto (excluding utility, and counting everything), How many do you have?

 

What happens if you pull the secret space into the office. 4m x 3m to me is neither a compact study (which would be 3x3m) nor somewhere sufficient for a big worktable in addition to the desk for holding meetings or doing 5000 piece jigsaws,

 

Ferdinand

Edited December 7, 2019 by Ferdinand

[puntloos]

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Followup.

 

I think that WOW

To be clear I'm going more for 'HUH'.

Srsly, I have to be realistic about the amount of space (in my smallish plot) I can free up purely for doing stuff like that. While 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

in a hall depends on having a huge space (say with a staircase AND a dining table - in our family small manor house there was a Jacobean staircase with a 15ft high x 6ft wide arched window, and the hall was about 20ft x 16ft in addition),

 

So yeah, if we're going for 'rate my crib' or some MTV show where superstars show of how they invested their money kicking a ball..  

How small was this manor house anyway?

 

To be fair my current design is 25ft high ceiling, 16 x 10 floor.. 

 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

or playing to create perceptions of space. Surprises also help, so eg a dark low ceiling porch into a bright high ceiling space is dramatic - Frank Loydd Wright did this in houses.

 

Good idea. One Arch I spoke to today mentioned that having the far end of the hall a bit narrower creates the impression of distance,

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Perhaps try:

 

Pull sneak corridor into hall.

Not sure what you mean here, 'sacrifice' the sneak pantry for a wider hallway?

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Try some sort of rooflight feature to give something to draw the eye upwards

Good idea.

 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Try a dogleg staircase across the side and back, which will mean they see the double height space immediately on entering.

 

Like this? (the right one is my current)

 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I think that perhaps your kitchen and office are a little 'average'. In my kitchen I have 30+ 600mm unit spaces in toto (excluding utility, and counting everything), How many do you have?

 

I have no idea ? do you count a base cabinet as '1' and the overhanging wall cabinet as another one? Or is the entire height of the house 1?

Assuming base+wall = 2, then currently I have about 25. 

 

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

What happens if you pull the secret space into the office. 4m x 3m to me is neither a compact study (which would be 3x3m) nor somewhere sufficient for a big worktable in addition to the desk for holding meetings or doing 5000 piece jigsaws,

True, but well, at least currently I'm doing computer work. No need to assemble complex machinery. Still, not terrible to reconcile a little.

 

Thanks for your responses so far!

[puntloos]

Since this inline discussion format is a bit tough to follow for people dropping in, let me recap where I stand after all of this:

 

Most people seem to like the general concept of the living space, large open plan with a good separation of the areas so it doesn't become too cavernous. Also the design is unique enough to not be too cookie-cutter. 

 

Some design choices were rightly critiqued. Details below, but as a general response I would say I'm a not an architect, that's why we've hired one - meaning, while I think I could fix some of the more obvious ones (e.g. ground floor walls rarely lining up with 1st floor walls), but resolving all the knock-on effects from rejiggering things will cost me a lot of time, and the architect will only take this design as 'strong suggestions for direction' rather than exacting choices not to be trifled with ?

 

In response I created an updated presentation. In text form most of it is below:

 

Pantry/sneakway

This little room is seen by many as 'not great for anything' - with a walkway it doesn't have enough storage to really matter. Instead, a few suggest moving the pantry into either garage,or hall, or perhaps 50-50. I'd note though that part of the reason for the pantry is the pocket doors need space to live in.

Garage

We're probably going ahead with a garage that for planning permission purposes looks solid/internal, but we might not finish it and turn it into effectively a car port. Future insights might compel us to close off the garage into a place where even @epsilonGreedy could tinker with Automobiles.  Width-wise though, I don't think we will want to make it much wider than the current 3m, although as mentioned we might take some of the pantry.

 

Hall

The hall, while already larger than 'standard ones' had most of the focus of discussion. Various designs of the stairwell were suggested given that the current design squeezed the lowest step of the stairs very close to the front door. The main challenge is to combine various features to make the hallway feel spacious without sacrificing too much to get it. Some ideas suggested were to recess the doors to draw the eye into wondering what's around the corner, and also somehow (visually?) narrowing the hallway near the sliding doors might make it seem deeper. 

At the end of the day though, I suspect the hallway will feel largest if the distance one can see in any direction is the largest. For this reason I'm also not quite convinced to make the hallway less wide on the first floor, even though the 'dead end' walkway with the plant is frankly a little silly. I'd like a better or more useful use of that space, but I'm happy with the visual benefits of it.

-> No substantial decision made, probably leave it up to the architect, but visually I think the stairway to the side-and-back of the hallway appeals most to me.

 

Basement

I received a handwavequote from a builder on our shortlist saying that if they were to build the house, adding a basement under it would cost roughly 2500/sqm. (compared to the rule-of-thumb 2000/sqm we're considering). While we don't deeply need more space, having a basement does have benefits, especially if there are noisy pieces of equipment (MVHR, ASHP, AC, Gym Stuff) and/or noisy kids there. 

-> Our current plan is to perhaps apply for planning permission for a 30-odd sqm basement, and decide later if we want to actually build it.

 

Office

Might enlarge the office a little at the expense of the play room and the 'secret' room. Rotating the desk away from facing the window might help against glare from outside.

 

MasterBed

Shape for the Master suite is well-liked but main bed area feels a bit small for the size of the house. Our main goal is to have enough storage even if we turn the walk-in into an extra bedroom. Opening up to the roof might give an extra sense of spaciousness.

 

Kid Room

Perhaps also good to open up to the roof, fun play area there, as well as perhaps adding an ensuite to improve the overall balance of the house

[Ferdinand]

I think you are doing just fine.

 

You just have more questions and threads than anyone since Dr Johnson published his Dictionary in 1755 ?. No whiffle-whaffling anywhere !

 

The Kids Room to the Roof - is that the playroom? - could have a climbing wall or a "King of the Castle" mezzanine.

 

My consideration of the staircase was to suggest a dogleg down the side and across the back somewhere, with the study door just inside the front door. The idea being that if someone can perceive a space above the staicase on entry, it feels like a larger room.

 

Ferdinand 

[puntloos]

22 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think you are doing just fine.

 

You just have more questions and threads than anyone since Dr Johnson published his Dictionary in 1755 ?. No whiffle-whaffling anywhere !

 

Ha, well, just doing what I can to make sure I understand the nature of the project

Just hoping I'm not forgetting aardvark.

 

22 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

The Kids Room to the Roof - is that the playroom? - could have a climbing wall or a "King of the Castle" mezzanine.

 

Well, the main idea is that we weren't planning to create a proper loft, but instead just extending the kids room unto the roof, or perhaps having some type of ladder to a fun space in there might work..

 

22 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

My consideration of the staircase was to suggest a dogleg down the side and across the back somewhere, with the study door just inside the front door.

Did my render of this - 

 

Not reflect what you had in mind? (obviously it can be done a bit more elegantly..)

 

22 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

The idea being that if someone can perceive a space above the staicase on entry, it feels like a larger room.

 

Hmm. indeed I think I see the idea, many staircases can only sort-of show what's above them.. a ceiling light will help, no?

 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

 

Ha, well, just doing what I can to make sure I understand the nature of the project

Just hoping I'm not forgetting aardvark.

 

 

Well, the main idea is that we weren't planning to create a proper loft, but instead just extending the kids room unto the roof, or perhaps having some type of ladder to a fun space in there might work..

 

Did my render of this - 

 

Not reflect what you had in mind? (obviously it can be done a bit more elegantly..)

 

 

Hmm. indeed I think I see the idea, many staircases can only sort-of show what's above them.. a ceiling light will help, no?

 

 

If you look at them, that was a standard part of the hall layout in smaller Edwardian and 1930s house which, though modest compared to a mansion, try to ape the style of larger houses.

 

There could be some or all of:

 

- A space inside the front door before the staircase

- A small floor pattern to make it look bigger

- Something to create the impression of further distance eg a chair, panelling or wall decoration

- Something that can be perceived out of the other end of the hall - in your case it could be a vista through your living area and then through a window to a focal point at the end of the garden.

- if you want you could try a visually closed door with a surprise space beyond, or orientation of long, narrow floor tiles.

- something to stop your eye visually half way so it lingers.

 

 

The trick is choice of elements, and how they are used to do what you want.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ferdinand

[puntloos]

14 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

If you look at them, that was a standard part of the hall layout in smaller Edwardian and 1930s house which, though modest compared to a mansion, try to ape the style of larger houses.

 

There could be some or all of:

 

- A space inside the front door before the staircase

- A small floor pattern to make it look bigger

- Something to create the impression of further distance eg a chair, panelling or wall decoration

- Something that can be perceived out of the other end of the hall - in your case it could be a vista through your living area and then through a window to a focal point at the end of the garden.

- if you want you could try a visually closed door with a surprise space beyond, or orientation of long, narrow floor tiles.

- something to stop your eye visually half way so it lingers.

 

These are really useful, thank you. I think that indeed perhaps the concept of an edwardian house (mini-mansion ) is perhaps interesting for me to study a bit more, trying to retain some of the 'luxurious' features of properties that are more generously proportioned..

 

14 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

 

 

Good picture. Not quite my style, but a more slick modern version would do the same thing. Would you agree that a 'transparent' staircase would be less mysterious than this style, so indeed the eye would move to wonder what is around the back, whilst if you can see through e.g. 

 

[Ferdinand]

Any reason you can't stick the stairs on the LHS like that, put your loo under the stairs to make space at the front, and put the sneak door from the far side of the loo?

[puntloos]

On 12/12/2019 at 19:19, Ferdinand said:

Any reason you can't stick the stairs on the LHS like that,

 

Left Hand Side? No particular reason, not sure what the main difference is between LH or RH?

 

On 12/12/2019 at 19:19, Ferdinand said:

put your loo under the stairs to make space at the front, and put the sneak door from the far side of the loo?

 

Isn't that roughly what I put in the picture (attached below) I designated 'ferdinand staircase (in my updated discussion presentation) No toilet yet but other than that basically there?

 

 

Clearly swapping LH or RH curving doesn't matter too much, I could.. go either way..