ASHP central heating/plumbing quote

[Wagas]

What do people think of this quote? Reasonable or expensive? I presume the 5% VAT is not applicable to self build...

 

150 sqm ground floor with first floor attic truss

2 bath and 1 WC

 

Thanks

 

 

ASHP & Cylinder 

Supply and install 1 x new Mitsubishi Ecodan SW-10-Vha2-BS 10 kw Split air source heat pump complete with 1x Mitsubishi EPHT 200L packaged hot water cylinder. Supply interconnecting 3/8 & 5/8 refrigeration lagged copper pipe, 2 x rubber big feet fix it feet for outdoor unit, 1.8 kg of R410a refrigerant, Expansion vessel kit, Fernox TF1 magnetic in line particle filter, set up commissioning and commissioning report. 

£8,600 

 

UFH & Radiator Heating 

Supply and install 1 x 16mm clipped on insulation wet underfloor heating system to entire ground floor level comprising of 6 zones complete with digital dial room thermostats. Supply 1 x 8 port manifold complete with pump set, blending valves, air vents, temperature gauges, isolation valves, electric actuators, wiring centre to complete zone 1 heating. (does not include underfloor insulation or any form of screed. This work to be carried out by others) 

 

Supply 8 x Kudox Radiators (sizes TBC) to upstairs space (positions TBC) complete with thermostatic radiator valves & lock shield valves. Supply and install uponor 25mm primary flow and return circuits from cylinder to 16mm pipe feeds to radiators to complete zone 2 heating. 

£4,750 

 

Hot & Cold supplies 

Supply and install uponor 25 mm/16mm primary hot & cold supply pipework throughout the property terminating at all toilet, basin, sink, shower, outside tap locations complete with 15mm isolation valves. 

Wastewater services 

Supply & install all 4” waste soil stacks with 1 to be terminated to atmosphere. Supply & install all required 1 ¼ & 1 ½ waste pipes from all required toilets, basins, sinks, showers to new soil stacks. Test new waste system for water tightness and required drainage. 

Second fix 

Install second fix sanitary ware basins W/C’s, shower valves, shower trays and screens. Install and connect kitchen & utility sinks complete with water feeds and wastes to and from washing machine & dishwasher. Run test and commission all installed second fix items. 

£3,700 

 

Quotation Total - £17,050 plus 5% vat 

Grand total - £17,902 inc vat (if applicable) 

[SteamyTea]

27 minutes ago, Wagas said:

10 kw Split air source heat pump

Always worries me when I see something mistypes.

(I am the master at mistyping, I do it all the time)

[ProDave]

I am not commenting on price other than that sounds about the going rate for a "renewable heating company"

 

But 200Litre water tank imho is way too small.  Bearing in mind water heated from an ASHP tends to be at a lower temperature than say a gas boiler (we store ours at 48 degrees) so you will use more hot with less cold added to bring it down to temperature.  We have a 300L tank and on a couple of occasions (until I installed an instant electric heater as backup)  we had some "run out of hot water" incidents which trust me, does not impress the ladies with their hair wet and full of shampoo.

 

What savings are you hoping to make? and what is your practical ability?  The easiest saving would probable be do the UFH yourself.

 

Also who chose a split system?  A monoblock system would avoid the need for an F gas engineer to be involved and would open it up to any plumber being able to install it, plus it would put the bit that makes all the noise, outside the house.

[PeterW]

I don't like the 25/16 Uponor stuff as it needs specialist kit to alter it. Ask for it to be redone in Hep2O as then you can get like for like quotes

[Wagas]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Also who chose a split system?  A monoblock system would avoid the need for an F gas engineer to be involved and would open it up to any plumber being able to install it, plus it would put the bit that makes all the noise, outside the house.

 

He said something like "no need for expensive anti freeze" with the split system. Certainly don't want any noise... I was under the impression from him that all the noise would be outside

[Wagas]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

But 200Litre water tank imho is way too small.  Bearing in mind water heated from an ASHP tends to be at a lower temperature than say a gas boiler (we store ours at 48 degrees) so you will use more hot with less cold added to bring it down to temperature.  We have a 300L tank and on a couple of occasions (until I installed an instant electric heater as backup)  we had some "run out of hot water" incidents which trust me, does not impress the ladies with their hair wet and full of shampoo.

 

There will only be 1 or 2 people living in the house for the foreseeable future

[ProDave]

29 minutes ago, Wagas said:

 

He said something like "no need for expensive anti freeze" with the split system. Certainly don't want any noise... I was under the impression from him that all the noise would be outside

"Expensive Antifreeze" = Screwfix No Nonsense inhibitor / antifreeze at 25% gives protection down to -10 degrees.  That will be a LOT cheaper than paying an F gas engineer to visit site, make the refrigerant pipe connections, leak test it, vacuum it down and fill with gas.

 

Re noise.  With a split system only the fan unit is outside. The compressor is in the inside unit.  Think the compressor of a large refrigerator running whenever the HP is on. It may not be that noisy, but I still prefer it to be outside.

 

With a monoblock unit the compressor is outside as well, and it is only a water connection from inside to out, it comes pre charged from the factory with the refrigerent gas, so no need for an F gas engineer.

[Jeremy Harris]

Hard to say whether that's good value or not, TBH.  In the cheap seats I can give the cost of our heating, hot water and plumbing, although I did most of the labour (this is for a 130m², two bedroom, house).

 

7 kW ASHP (Glowworm Envirosorb 2) £1,700, inc VAT and delivery (bought as new, old stock, so around 2/3rds of full price), plus about £300 for installation stuff.

 

Ground floor UFH, ~300m of 16mm pipe, included in slab cost, but would have been about £200, plus manifold, pump and all pipework to connect it up, about £350

 

70 litre buffer tank about £200, plus another £250 for hot water pre-heat plate heat exchanger, pipework and pump

 

Sunamp UniQ 9 kWh electrically heated hot water system, including all pipework and TMV, ~£2,000

 

All plumbing, waste and soil pipes etc for two bathrooms, kitchen, utility room and WC (excluding cost of WCs, sinks, basins, cabinets, shower bath etc) ~ £400

 

I did all the labour except for installing the UFH pipes in the slab, and I probably took at least  twice as long as a plumber would, as I'm not the fastest worker.  I would estimate that I spent a total of two to three days installing the ASHP, heating system and hot water system.  I probably spent around another 2 weeks or so doing all the plumbing, first and second fix, including connecting up the WCs, putting in the soil and waste pipes, etc.  I may have spent as long as 15 days in total on everything related to heating, hot water, plumbing etc, spread over a fair time.  A professional could probably have done the lot in no more than 10 days I'd guess.  Assuming 10 days at £220/day, then that adds about £2,200 on for labour.

 

Adding up this lot comes to about £5,400 for materials, plus a notional £2,200 for labour, so around £7,600.

 

I'd agree with @ProDave's point about the hot water cylinder capacity.  We have the equivalent of about 210 litres of hot water capacity from our Sunamp, but that has significantly lower heat losses than a hot water tank and runs at a higher temperature (it starts off at around 65°C).  That's fine for two of us, but is roughly equivalent to a 300 litre tank that's being heated to a lower temperature by the ASHP (we heat our water via either E7 or excess PV generation, and only use the ASHP to pre-heat the water a bit).  I think we'd struggle a bit on just two thirds of the hot water capacity, especially as the ASHP won't be able to recharge the tank very quickly.

 

 

[ragg987]

35 minutes ago, Wagas said:

He said something like "no need for expensive anti freeze" with the split system. Certainly don't want any noise... I was under the impression from him that all the noise would be outside

I have a split system. The indoor unit is not noisy, essentially it is the noise of a circulation pump.

 

Agree his comment re antifreeze, this is required as your water flow goes outside. And the refrigerant of a split system does require a qualified fitter, but in my case this was cheaper than antifreeze.

Edited August 20, 2019 by ragg987

[Jeremy Harris]

Re: the cost of an F gas installation versus the cost of antifreeze in a monobloc.  I can directly compare the two, as I recently has a quote to vacuum, leak check and gas a split.  The comparison is:

 

Cost of F gas chap coming out to vacuum, leak check , gas and commision a 2.5 kW split (would be much the same for a larger one) £300, inc VAT

 

Cost of antifreeze/inhibitor £42 (enough for a system with a primary circuit volume of 40 litres, mine's about 25 litres)

[Alexphd1]

Big fan of uponor mlcp (not pex)  and uponor mlcp can be adjusted without specialist equipment (pipe cutter, bevelling tool and correct fittings)

 

Is it a RHI installation?

[Stones]

To me, the big stand out is the cost of the ASHP and cylinder.  £4500 should buy you the Mitsubishi Ecodan and preplumbed cylinder.  Fitting (electrician and plumber) no more than £500.  The rest is their mark up - assume this will be MCS accredited install  (there are costs the installer has to pay, and they have to recoup to become accredited).  If RHI  payments are going to equal or exceed the cost of the extra over, then you could rationalise the price.  If not, you may want to consider buying the ASHP and cylinder package yourself and getting spark and plumber to install (monobloc rather than split ASHP).

 

The remainder doesn't seem too far off to me (taking on board comments above)

[PeterW]

27 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

Big fan of uponor mlcp (not pex)  and uponor mlcp can be adjusted without specialist equipment (pipe cutter, bevelling tool and correct fittings)

 

Is it a RHI installation?

 

Apologies as by specialist kit I meant fittings - just tend to be pricey that’s all. 

[Wagas]

24 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

Is it a RHI installation?

 

Yes.

 

Thanks for all the comments. I can't seem to find a 10kw ecodan online to compare price, I don't even think they make 10kw...closest is 11kw. He's a local guy so it would be a nice job for him so if I go down ASHP route I will haggle him. I'm getting a couple of other quotes but here in the SE tradesmen are having a field day so I don't expect much difference in price.

 

What are the advantages of a split system? If it's only to save on anti freeze then I don't see the point. Surely there must be some significant advantages

[PeterW]

You can save on antifreeze just by using a buffer tank and coil but it’s not that expensive and you’re talking probably £100 or so for the average system. It also doesn’t degrade like it does on a GSHP as it’s not being circulated the same. 

[Jeremy Harris]

A quick look suggests that the Ecodan 11 kW monobloc is around £4,750, including VAT, delivery and the controller etc.  A decent 300 litre UVC is going to be around  £600 inc VAT and delivery.  That adds up to around £5350 inc VAT, so around £4,460 exc VAT (and you should be being quoted ex-VAT prices for a supply and fit contract).  Even if you add on a bit for accessories, like mounting feet, pipework, filter, etc it's hard to see how the price for the heat pump and cylinder could be over £5,000 ex-VAT.  That's a fair bit cheaper than the £8,600 you've been quoted, and installation of a monoblock and cylinder is going to be a day's work at most..

[ProDave]

Some quick googling:

 

Ecodan 11.4Kw monoblock ASHP £4499 inc VAT (you can claim the VAT back for a new build)  https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/mitsubishi-ecodan-air-source-heat-pump-pack-ftc4-112kw/

 

Ecodan 11.4Kw monoblock with pre plumbed 300L HW cylinder £6706 inv VAT https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/mitsubishi-ecodan-heat-pump-112kw-and-300l-pre-plumbed-standard-cylinder/

 

Just the first one I could find showing an online retail price, does not mean a recommendation or that it is the best price.

 

To me, that says the Misubishi pre plumbed cylinder is expensive at £2207.  I paid just under £1000 for a 300L Telford Stainless unvented cylinder with heat pump input coil.

 

If those prices are representative that means they are charging £2K for the installation.

 

Personally I would be looking at the Mitsubishi heat pump with a Telford HW tank at a component cost in the order of £5500 and just get a competent plumber and electrician.

 

EDIT: post crossed with above but I think we both found just about the same figures.

[Alexphd1]

Agree with the above regarding split v monobloc, only benefit I can see for split set up if ashp is located a long distance away from property. 

Depending on the amount of RHI payment I dont think the price is far of. If you have time to spec system and do a bit of easy work yourself ie install the UFH pipe yourself and sub in a decent plumber when needed you can cut a lot of that 17k maybe even half it.

[ProDave]

What RHI payments have they indicated you are likely to receive?

[PeterW]

No heating controllers listed in that lot ..? 

[Wagas]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

No heating controllers listed in that lot ..? 

This not them? 

 

.....Supply and install 1 x 16mm clipped on insulation wet underfloor heating system to entire ground floor level comprising of 6 zones complete with digital dial room thermostats.

[Wagas]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What RHI payments have they indicated you are likely to receive?

 

I don't have indication in writing. I'm not even sure how it's calculated...he mentioned £500-700 per year verbally but I see some people on here getting less than £100 so I'm not counting on getting much

[PeterW]

12 minutes ago, Wagas said:

This not them? 

 

.....Supply and install 1 x 16mm clipped on insulation wet underfloor heating system to entire ground floor level comprising of 6 zones complete with digital dial room thermostats.

 

Nope that’s room stats - what’s controlling zone 1/2 and DHW..?

[Alexphd1]

At that figures I would be doing a DIY, just came across a samsung 9kw monoblock plus control box for £2600 inc vat. 

[ProDave]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

Nope that’s room stats - what’s controlling zone 1/2 and DHW..?

Probably the controller that comes with the heat pump.  Which probably also translates to heating is on or off, no chance of zoning upstairs and downstairs.