Gow

I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue

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Planning permission was granted for the second time earlier this year but the design plan may have to be amened for a third time.  I do not want to go back to the current architect and sidekick to ask them to amend the plans again.  I have lost faith in them.  Alas, I seem to have found a team whose main skill is to "just go along with what the client wants no matter how ridiculous her ideas are". I now realise that there has been very little design input from them but as this is my first experience of building an extension I had no idea of what could be achieved and how the best use of space can be accomplished. I have not been able to come up with a perfect plan on my own.  So far I have spent a small fortune on the applications for planning permission and still not got it right.

 

At the SEC Home Renovation Show a builder on the Help Desk and an architect at the PAS stand both suggested too much space has been dedicated to the WC/Shower room and advised me to rethink the position of the door so that the WC can be accessed from the kitchenette and office.  Yep, I can now visualise how this would be much better.  The architect who I spoke to at the SEC show came to visit. His fee would be £2,500 to amend the plans plus a fee on top of his fee for engineer specifications (and possibly an additional amount for VAT). I declined his offer of help!

 

I lack experience and have no idea what the minimum size of a small WC/Shower room should be. The current project team are waiting for me to approve their choice of engineer but I would rather give them a wide bearth and try to get the plans right this time if I actually go ahead with the project.  I may have to abandon it for I do not have an unlimited budget and I am still a rookie who will still be clueless when the time comes to deal with the builder. 

 

O me miserum....

188 A1 22.06.pdf

Edited by Gow
missing words

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Welcome to the forum.

 

Basically agree with @the_r_sole, can you post your brief "requirements" and "constraints" - then we can comment more usefully.

 

F

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1 hour ago, Gow said:

[...]

I have not been able to come up with a perfect plan on my own. 

[...]

 

Welcome.

There's yer problem ... '... on my own ...'

 

That statement implies the need for team work, and all that goes with it. Teams are wonderful things when they have bedded in, when colleagues come to know and trust one-another. And they only ever do so in a deep and meaningful way when the members have shared a bit of hardship : been tested in some way. Had corners knocked off , snarled at one another a bit and made up (or not as the case may be).

Thats the thing you need to work on - whether with an architect or not - getting someone to design with you.  The chemistry's the thing.

Compromise, provoke, enable, share. Be clear.

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1 hour ago, Gow said:

…and have no idea what the minimum size of a small WC/Shower room should be.

 

Yep, it can be very difficult to visualize. When I was designing my house layout I came up with a bathroom size and decided to check if it was too small by comparing it with my then-current house's small bathroom. Found the current bathroom could fit in the proposed one diagonally - so, no, not too small.

 

One thing you could do is to compare it with the minimum standards in building regulations for accessible facilities, in Scotland start with 3.12.3 in https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-standards-2017-domestic/3-environment/312-sanitary-facilities/

 

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21 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

There's yer problem ... '... on my own ...' 

 

Oh gosh that is not my problem at all.  I used the words .... on my own to imply that I am overwhelmed by the lack of input from the "experts/team" that I have been trying to work with. I do not for one minute want to work out what to do on my own but the sad fact is that I am only learning what not to do each time someone other "expert" looks at the current plans

 

In an ideal world I would be happy to work with a team or someone who could come up with some or all the answers. I am willing and able to listen.  The extension is such an insignificant project compared to a self-build from scratch but I'd like to get it right with proper guidance, support, help, whatever from an expert. I am quite sure that there are plenty of experts out there more than willing to work with me and come up with ideas that work because the "expert" has experience in the field and I do not but the problem is finding one of them but thanks for the pastoral advice....

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10 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

Is it a listed building?

 

What kind of breif did you give the original architect?

 

and not what the client wants...

 

It's a strange layout you have,

 

 

It is not a listed building

My brief was to install a WC/shower room on the ground floor.  First off the ground floor was re-arranged and planning permission granted then two builders independent of each of other suggested that re-arranging the ground floor was not a good investment as it would further reduce the size of the current galley kitchen

 

And the strange layout, well that's what I am hearing from others too thus I am at a loss with what to do next but I cannot keep paying fees indefinitely until someone comes up with the right way to do things.  This is the second plan.  And the strange layout I understand this now because the two chaps at the SEC questioned the layout. 

 

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10 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

post your brief "requirements" and "constraints" - then we can comment more usefully.

 

F

The brief - to instal a WC/shower room on the ground floor 

 

Constraints - a mid-terrace 1939 house and a limited budget that does not run to state-of-the-art 18ct gold taps for the wash basin...

 

Requirements: a ground floor WC and shower and a small modern kitchenette where the cooker, washing machine fridge-freezer plus a sink will be installed while the units for storage including the Welsh dresser will remain in the dining room along with the table

 

The "office" is the current galley kitchen

 

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10 hours ago, Ed Davies said:

 

Yep, it can be very difficult to visualize.

 

Thanks. I feel lost and out of my depth at the moment

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Planning don't really care too much about internal layout so I do wo see whether this is being over thought? Looking at the issues, I doubt Planning would even care and were it me I'd put these in for non material variation after built. Just my tuppenth. 

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22 hours ago, Gow said:

I lack experience and have no idea what the minimum size of a small WC/Shower room should be.

 

 

Visit some DIY shed e.g. B&Q and sit down with the resident kitchen/bathroom designer. Within an hour your should be able to fly around your proposed bathroom or kitchen on screen. Then buy yourself a handheld laser distance measure and visit a few housing estate showrooms, when you see something you like whip out our laser measure.

 

A minimum wc/shower room should be possible in 2m x 2.5m, the 2.3m x 3.6m example in your plan is ginormous.

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in short, the shower room is 2 or 2.5 times bigger than it needs to be. If it is just a shower room rather than somewhere to spend time relaxing or ironing etc then eg 1.8 x 1.4 or smaller can be doable and give a very generous shower space, though it is quite compact. If you need disabled access etc then it needs to be larger.

 

The more significant issues with this plan are, for a start

 

1 Room arrangement and connection. Eg consider how far  the loo is away if you need a wee whilst boiling an egg. It is an expedition.

2 Light. Both your middle lounge and your office have virtually no natural light.

3 There’s far too much circulation space .. hallway, walking between doors through rooms etc. 

 

I think’ what has perhaps happened is cross-purposes with the designer. You perhaps have not the background to be an informed client,and your designer has not challenged you enough beyond your immediate expressed requirements. The particular thing to me is the potential opportunities for improvement which have not been addressed.

 

On the positive side, this is a nice wide terrace with heaps of potential, and that could be 95% done within the existing PP footprint which should only require a minor or non-material amendment, or even a phone call. 

 

One simple way to change it would be

 

1 Make the kitchen diner office right across the back.

2 Take a narrower-than-the-hall corridor straight through the LHS of the office to the kitchen.

3 Put the shower room lengthways roughly where the store and the first part of the office are on the RHS behind the stairs.

4 Put a small utility for washing machines etc behind that.

5 Incorporate a study area into where the part of your shower is currently proposed. So on the RHS of that cross-room.

6 Replace those 2 outside doors with patio doors in the single kitchen space.

7 Include a serious amount of roof glazing in your extension to light the middle lounge.

8 The middle lounge would imo be better with the biggest arch you can make to the kitchen. And that room could be whatever you want.

 

That should not require major planning, but it will need input from Building Control, who you would eg dealing with anyway. The principle is better access to the back, simplify layout without major disturbance to existing, and give light to rooms where you spend time rather than services and machines.

 

Other things are possible, and could give major extra benefit, but that is a simple one. or you could do simpler things.

 

But either this or your original proposal are well Into in the 30k-40k+ area imo cost wise unless you do a lot of DIY, and/or Phase it, which is entirely possible.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ferdinand
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The underlying stuff you need to answer here is the question:

 

How do we want to live? Ie do you want divided rooms and lots of spaces, or more modern open plan? Perhaps keep a 7 day diary of activities and use that to help reflect on the next version you come up with.

 

Also, this artlcle may be useful where we talked about terrace plans:

 

Ferdinand

Edited by Ferdinand
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1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Visit some DIY shed e.g. B&Q and sit down with the resident kitchen/bathroom designer. Within an hour your should be able to fly around your proposed bathroom or kitchen on screen. Then buy yourself a handheld laser distance measure and visit a few housing estate showrooms, when you see something you like whip out our laser measure.

 

A minimum wc/shower room should be possible in 2m x 2.5m, the 2.3m x 3.6m example in your plan is ginormous.

It's the layout for the builders who will be building the extension that's the problem.  I have already refurbished the bathroom and had no problem fitting everything in.

I've been told the space dedicated to the WC/shower room is OTT that's why I signed in for help

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56 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

in short, the shower room is 2 or 2.5 times bigger than it needs to be. If it is just a shower room rather than somewhere to spend time relaxing or ironing etc then eg 1.8 x 1.4 or smaller can be doable and give a very generous shower space, though it is quite compact. If you need disabled access etc then it needs to be larger.

 

The more significant issues with this plan are, for a start

 

1 Room arrangement and connection. Eg consider how far  the loo is away if you need a wee whilst boiling an egg. It is an expedition.

2 Light. Both your middle lounge and your office have virtually no natural light.

3 There’s far too much circulation space .. hallway, walking between doors through rooms etc. 

 

I think’ what has perhaps happened is cross-purposes with the designer. You perhaps have not the background to be an informed client,and your designer has not challenged you enough beyond your immediate expressed requirements. The particular thing to me is the potential opportunities for improvement which have not been addressed.

 

On the positive side, this is a nice wide terrace with heaps of potential, and that could be 95% done within the existing PP footprint which should only require a minor or non-material amendment, or even a phone call. 

 

One simple way to change it would be

 

1 Make the kitchen diner office right across the back.

2 Take a narrower-than-the-hall corridor straight through the LHS of the office to the kitchen.

3 Put the shower room lengthways roughly where the store and the first part of the office are on the RHS behind the stairs.

4 Put a small utility for washing machines etc behind that.

5 Incorporate a study area into where the part of your shower is currently proposed. So on the RHS of that cross-room.

6 Replace those 2 outside doors with patio doors in the single kitchen space.

7 Include a serious amount of roof glazing in your extension to light the middle lounge.

8 The middle lounge would imo be better with the biggest arch you can make to the kitchen. And that room could be whatever you want.

 

That should not require major planning, but it will need input from Building Control, who you would eg dealing with anyway. The principle is better access to the back, simplify layout without major disturbance to existing, and give light to rooms where you spend time rather than services and machines.

 

Other things are possible, and could give major extra benefit, but that is a simple one. or you could do simpler things.

  

But either this or your original proposal are well Into in the 30k-40k+ area imo cost wise unless you do a lot of DIY, and/or Phase it, which is entirely possible.

 

Ferdinand 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Ferdinand.  I have copied your suggestions into a document to study them well and proceed from there

There's enough in the budget to cover the build and enough left over for the fixtures and fittings I hope :))

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4 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

Planning don't really care too much about internal layout so I do wo see whether this is being over thought? Looking at the issues, I doubt Planning would even care and were it me I'd put these in for non material variation after built. Just my tuppenth. 

Thanks, that's good news because the architect kept insisting that the internal layout had to fixed otherwise the builders would be charging an additional amount for everything that does not conform to the plan.  I wanted to see the shell of the extension before the fittings etc were even thought about apart from the obvious ones that need drainage!

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This is an eve; simpler suggestion.

 

Shower off hall where it should be.

Your existing walls left alone to save cost save for one.

Kitchen able to be bigger since no one up is transiting through it.

Patio doors.

Decent light to central space.

And you have a big flexible semi-divided space, and can put your study area wherever you want.

 

The only fly in the ointment is that the shower is still rather large. I would consider putting a false all in, and making the K side of the shower room a storage wall accessed through holes made in the brick wall from the kitchen. A unique feature.

 

 

B66EBFEB-7E14-4AAC-909A-C723AFDCB14A.thumb.jpeg.037ed12b93316608c3a7b77ad2d925e8.jpeg

 

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1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

... simpler suggestion.

 

 

The only fly in the ointment is that the shower is still rather large. I would consider putting a false all in, and making the K side of the shower room a storage wall accessed through holes made in the brick wall from the kitchen. A unique feature.

  

 

 

 

Any simple suggestion is welcome

In the overlarge shower room I wanted to stick the washing machine in there. I used to live abroad and that was permissable but the rules and regs are different here so I simply abandoned that idea.

 

The study is the unofficial name for a supplementary bedroom. The GCC does not allowed to call it be a supplementary bedroom due to lack of outside windows or sum'it but c'est la vie

Edited by Gow
typo

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1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

 

Something is definitely a miss if you've gone for planning twice on something you don't want ! 

That I know! This is the reason I am here.  I sort of knew what I wanted but was unable to see how the space could be used.  The first plan was to squeeze in a WC then the builders mentioned a shower and the kitchen needs renovated anyway so they convinced me to think about an extension instead of reducing the kitchen further. Thanks to Fernand's plan above the penny dropped:  The front lounge can be used as the ground floor bedroom

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14 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

...the builder has said you should do something different?
 

...it's clear that there are communication issues going on with this one bit it appears that you need a bit of advice on how to advise the other people involved in the process at the moment before you get to the point of discussing the floor area of a shower room

You have hit the nail on the head. 

Two independent builders thought that re-arranging the ground floor was not the best way of spending my money

And, there is a communication issue.  I have felt at a loss most of the time when I try to understand what can be done with the space available

Good Advice is always welcome

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